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Ben Newsome: You’re listening to the Fizzics Ed Podcast. For hundreds of ideas, free experiments and more, go to fizzicseducation.com.au. And now, here’s your host, Ben Newsome.

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Ben Newsome: G’day and welcome again from the Fizzics Ed Podcast. Glad to have you again for another chat around STEM. Today we are talking about something that affects you no matter where you are around this world of ours. We are talking with someone who really understands deep time. We’re hanging out with a deep time geologist, Dr. Indrani Mukherjee, who is very much someone who studies the origin of complex life. It’s really fascinating stuff. Now, she is an amazing person. She is a Superstar of STEM from Science and Technology Australia, and she is a deep time geologist from the University of New South Wales. Fascinating work, and guess what? She loves inspiring women to get into STEM. So we’re going to hear all about what she gets up to. Let’s get into it.

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Announcer: This is the Fizzics Ed Podcast. We’re all about science, ed tech and more. To see 100 fun free experiments you can do with your class, go to fizzicseducation.com.au. That’s physics spelled F I Z Z I C S and click 100 free experiments.

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Ben Newsome: I’m really excited. I haven’t had a chance to have a chat with a genuine, bona fide, biochemical geologist type person. It’s going to be really fascinating to learn what it is that you do and why you do it.

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Dr. Indrani Mukherjee: Yeah, so I think what you just said sounded very sophisticated. I wish I was that sophisticated, but no, I’m just an Earth scientist. And just like the name suggests, I study Earth and Earth materials and understand why it formed, when it formed, and how it formed. And so Earth sciences is a very, very broad sort of discipline. But my specialty dives into geochemistry. So geochemistry, again, is a very, very broad discipline within geology or Earth sciences. But I use the geochemical, or rather chemical information that’s stored within our rocks. And I specialize on a specific kind of rocks, but the techniques are applicable to any rocks, really. We understand the chemical information that’s been stored for millions and millions of years and try and understand how that rock formed, why it formed, and how it formed.

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Ben Newsome: I’m curious. Why did you—I guess in the nature of science we have to specialize in something in an area. Why this particular rock type?

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Dr. Indrani Mukherjee: Oh, I think it depends on the research question. So my research question is to understand what our oceans were like in the past. So there’s a lot of debate on how our oceans are evolving in modern day. But my research question, and the one that fascinates me the most, is how have we come to be what we are now? What was the evolution process like? And specifically, why you and I exist. And now that—you might think, “Oh, what’s that got to do with anything?” But the thing is, Ben, that you and I are made up of a very complex cell called the eukaryotic cell. And every complex organism on Earth today is made of that cell. At some point in Earth’s history, and we know precisely when because of the rock record history, when that complex cell first formed.

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Dr. Indrani Mukherjee: Now, not stepping into the realm of biology, they have a lot of theories on how the first complex cell might have formed. But as a geologist or as an Earth scientist, my role is to find out why. Not how it occurred—that’s very biological—but what were the geochemical or the geological conditions at the time that first complex cell formed? So that’s extremely fascinating to me because had that complex cell not formed, there would be nothing on Earth today. You and I wouldn’t be having this chat right now. So that fascinates me the most. And in order to answer the question, I’m having to look at the marine sedimentary rock record, a specific rock type. And we have the record on Earth. So for example, my samples come from Australia, Russia, China, India, the US. Look at certain rocks from a certain time period in Earth’s history, and that then dictates what techniques I can use to understand that specific rock type because I’m trying to look at rocks that would have formed in the oceans at the time.

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Dr. Indrani Mukherjee: So they’re very specific. They’re like—if you go to the bottom of the ocean today, you’ll find these muds, and that’s what’s lithified into black shales. That’s the kind of rocks I look at, for instance. And so yeah, why I look at rocks of a certain kind depends on the research question, and the research question is what keeps me going. It’s fascinating.

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Ben Newsome: It is fascinating. I was just thinking about some of the rock collections that exist in museums and really getting excited even when—when they’re really a wide collection of rocks. Not only are they across the world, but they’ve got a story to them. They always do. And I was actually just thinking—maybe not quite rock, but the stromatolites, the things that you see. “Hang on, this was sort of partly—this living sort of what? So long ago.” Wow. It’s the way that these sediments formed over time is fascinating. I kind of wonder, yes we’ve got the stories up until now, these stories potentially predict what’s coming next, or it might be something in a similar mode?

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Dr. Indrani Mukherjee: I’m really—I am so glad you mentioned it because, in my opinion, the most spectacular thing about our branch of science is the different time scales and the processes that have occurred on Earth on different time scales. We are looking at some things that are forming in our oceans as a matter of seconds, and there are some things that take millions of years, and there are some things that are somewhere in between. My point is, if we don’t understand what happened in the past and how things have evolved in the different time scales, especially the ones that will affect you and me, we will not be able to predict future scenarios. So we are very passionate about climate change, and rightly so, but I feel like there’s a real lack of awareness of Earth sciences from the geological past because people are like, “Well, I don’t care what happens millions of years ago. Yeah, it’s fascinating, but we need to worry about now.” But in order to be able to worry about now and predict solutions for the future, you have to understand how the evolution processes occurred and not just in terms of evolution of life, which is just a rather most fascinating story in my opinion, but just in general, how processes on Earth have occurred over different time scales. Because if we don’t have that information, what information are we actually going to feed into our AI? Because everything is about predicting these days.

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Ben Newsome: It’s very interesting when you think about people’s perspectives on, for example, the Earth. I mean, thinking about the wide arguments that happened over time whether plate tectonics were even a thing. And it went on for years and years and years, and people argued, because that’s the nature of science that we argue. It’s “Here’s my evidence.” And yet, the exploratory geologists, the people who want to find the minerals, the resources, the oil, the whatever it is—I mean I’m just even thinking right now of a story that came out of one of my favorite books, Bill Bryson’s A Short History of Nearly Everything. My brain’s not quite working this morning, but the point is he was having a chat about how the Chicxulub crater and its impact breccia, it was very clear that something smashed into Mexico and caused some trouble around the world a few million years ago. And people were arguing whether it even happened, and the geologists were going, “Well no, the ones who were actually doing the exploration for these minerals and things were saying, ‘We’ve been finding this stuff all the time, they just—no one asked us.'” I guess these issues are—there’s a lot of silos when it comes to information like this. And I guess when we’re talking about predictive AI about the way that these things might access information and then give it out to the public, it really depends on where they’re grabbing that information.

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Dr. Indrani Mukherjee: Yeah, and the other thing we have to remember is that we’re talking about deep time. So it ends up being your evidence versus mine. Because quite often we look for what we want to look for. And so quite often our theories, our ideas, our hypothesis is purely based on our biases, frankly. And so in my opinion—and we’re trying to get this happening in geology, but it doesn’t happen as much as I’d like it to—is the variability or the differences in opinion. We’re getting very clicky these days, and “my research supports yours, so must be good,” and “their research does not support mine, so yeah, no, that’s got to be taken with a pinch of salt.” So that’s always been there. But the important thing is that even as a geologist, I acknowledge that I’m limited in my ability to research into things. And yes, if I can have the evidence for this, I am prepared that should there be a more advanced technology in the coming years, we probably will have more information that will completely change the story.

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Ben Newsome: Well, one of the things that is fantastic for science in general is that you’ve been invited and you’re now involved as a Superstar of STEM, which is fantastic because now you get to go out into the world. And I mean, you already had a platform anyway, but this gives you yet another way to really get this out to the world. How’s that been?

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Dr. Indrani Mukherjee: It’s been really, really exciting. I cannot wait to talk about the two very important things that I’m going to highlight as part of this Superstars of STEM program. One of them is awareness of geoscience. Geoscience is not taught in our schools, Ben. So when students do take up geology or Earth sciences at the university, they come across so many different terms. It’s like a whole day full of jargon, and I remember feeling the same way when I was doing my undergrad in Delhi. Some of the terms I’d never heard of, and I could see the same expression in our first-year students because they’re thinking, “What was that term again? And sorry, what does that mean?”

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Dr. Indrani Mukherjee: So I want to break that down since I’ve now been offered a lecturing position at UNSW, so I’ll be teaching quite regularly and I really want to break those barriers down. The problem is, I want to do that so people continue to take geology in their higher degrees. We really need the next generation of geoscientists. There is a trend of culling geoscience departments in our universities, not just in Australia, but it’s a worldwide phenomenon because for some reason geology is portrayed as being all about mining and devastation and anti-environment or anti-climate change.

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Dr. Indrani Mukherjee: But we need to train the next generation of geoscientists if we really want to have solutions for climate problems that we are to face in the future. We can’t save Earth if we don’t have the knowledge about Earth, do you know what I mean? And so it’s absolutely key that the fundamentals of geology are being taught to whoever is interested in saving our environment. And you mentioned finding resources. In order to get to net zero, there will be a transition period where we will need green metals. And we will have to explore copper, for example. We will need to mine as much copper as we have in the past, in the next ten years.

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Dr. Indrani Mukherjee: We have to find it if we really want to get to our net zero commitments. It’s okay for us to want to get to net zero, and it’s okay for us to have conferences to say we want to get to net zero, but we have to actually get there. And in order to get there, we need the resources. So I think we have to—it’s never happened, but hopefully this generation or the future generation of geoscientists will be able to get people on the environment side and on the mining side to work together, because we’ve not worked together in the past.

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Ben Newsome: I remember reading many books about how—I mean at one point geology was in vogue. It was the thing. And we’re talking a couple of hundred years ago, everyone had a rock collection. It was the thing to talk about, “I found this rare sand in some place,” and it’s all sort of frittered away and now it’s quiet. But there is a potential for a resurgence because you’re right. I mean those minerals, those materials to build the new things, we need the stuff to build it with or it’s never going to happen. I kind of feel like there’s the inward look, looking at the Earth itself, but now we’re genuinely looking out into the solar system. I mean there are plenty of universities now with extra-solar biology departments and people are going, “What are you even talking about? Not even our solar system, what are you talking about?” It’s strange, but there is a genuine opportunity to inspire kids around geology because we are getting not just robots out into the solar system, but we’re now looking at getting people onto the moon again and potentially one day to Mars, who knows?

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Dr. Indrani Mukherjee: Yeah, we’re looking for signs of life elsewhere. That’s another thing. Geology is very broad. I mean, quite often we get the bad report because it’s all about mining and yes, sometimes mining has caused a lot of issues. But a lot of them are responsible mining, and most of our resources that you and I and a lot of others who are probably listening to this podcast use are Earth materials on a regular basis every single day.

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Dr. Indrani Mukherjee: Like the computer chip that’s trying to translate us right now—exactly. So we can’t sustain the society that we’re so used to living in. I mean, of course we can make some drastic changes to the way we live for the betterment of our environment, but in order to get there, we need to understand the environment around us. And geology is so broad, there’s so much we can do even in environmental geology if they want to assess, for instance, the damage a particular activity is going to cause. Unless they have the knowledge of what they’re dealing with, how can they possibly assess what the damage is going to be?

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Dr. Indrani Mukherjee: So I think fundamentals of geology is super, super important for anyone who is interested in saving the planet for whatever reason. But also to answer the big question, is there life outside? What are the signs of life? If it’s anything Earth-like, then what should we be looking for? If it’s not Earth-like, well that’s a fascinating question itself. Just to think about that there’s life outside of Earth—I mean, that will change a lot of things. That means we’re not the only ones on this planet. And we share the planet with millions and millions of species and we haven’t even discovered everything.

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Dr. Indrani Mukherjee: We haven’t even discovered everything on Earth, but we’ve ventured out into space as you mentioned and we’re looking for signs of life on other planets. So it will feed the scientific curiosity for decades to come. Geology has that potential that you understand the environment around you and it’s all linked. I know geology gets the very bad name in the Big Bang Theory show. Oh yes, “not real science” and what not. But if you’re a physics nerd or a chemistry nerd or a biological nerd, you have place for every single aspect of pure science in geology. I use chemistry and biology in my geochemical research problems all the time. It’s incredibly diverse and we can think of it as one field, but really the joy I get out of collaborating with people who are not hardcore geologists is even more rewarding.

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Ben Newsome: Absolutely. I was just thinking just then, even if you’re a primary teacher listening in and wondering, “How on Earth do I teach about the chemistry of rocks to my kids when they’re 10?” You can do quite simple things. For example, one of the things that grabbed my attention when I was teaching some young ones only a couple months ago was just simply dropping limestone versus granite versus marble into some vinegar.

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Dr. Indrani Mukherjee: Yeah, just basic rock cycle. What are the three different types of rocks and how do they form? They could all find different gemstones, that’s a great way to capture people’s attention. I’ve done some outreach with respect to stromatolites. You go to Shark Bay in Australia today, you see them growing and you’ll be happy to know that the oldest stromatolite is 3.5 billion years old in our backyard in Western Australia as well. And so you know, these were basically the drivers of the first life on Earth.

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Dr. Indrani Mukherjee: And the oxygen that you and I breathe and take for granted today was the work of the stromatolites back in the past and they were absolutely responsible for making the environment that you and I take for granted and oxygenated the whole world and support macro life that depends and relies on oxygen so much. So to have that history right in our backyard in Australia, to have that perspective and to understand how far we’ve come—this is 4.5 billion years old. And we are such a small part of that Earth’s history. But we are so capable—well, I like to think we are—to understand that history. And there’s so much to uncover, so the younger generation, I tell them, “This is where the unknown is and this is for you to figure out.”

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Ben Newsome: It is, and that’s the fascinating part about deep times, understanding the zeros you just said just so easily. 4.5 billion, that’s a lot of zeros when it comes to years. And getting kids to understand this, I think the traditional way is a day in time and pretending that we’ve got 24 hours a whole whatever, and we’ve only got a couple of seconds to midnight when we turn up. It’s hard to get your head around a billion versus a million. I mean, in fact, that was half the issue when people talk about economics, they’re trying to understand what is a billionaire versus a millionaire. It is so spectacularly different. And so when we’re talking 4.5 billion years in deep time versus 4.5 million years, which is by the way still a pretty long time—

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Dr. Indrani Mukherjee: Pretty long time, and not very long from my geologist perspective. But yeah, so I specifically focus on this time from 1800 million years to 800 million years and unfortunately the period has been coined as the Boring Billion. And my research is about proving all of that completely wrong and I call it the Brilliant Billion. But what I’m saying is that this is how far back in time I’ve worked on it. You know, over the last nine years I’ve worked on this and continue to work on it. So to me it’s very normal, but I do remember expressions on people’s faces, particularly if it’s a non-specialist audience.

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Dr. Indrani Mukherjee: If you’re talking to geologists, they get it right, but if you’re talking to schoolchildren or when I’m talking about it in my family, you just look at their faces and you go, “1800 million years ago. How do we even know what was happening 1800 million years ago?” And that’s the beauty of it. I’ve used a lot of sophisticated techniques and all kinds of things, Ben, but the joy I get out of getting my rocks and cutting a really thin section and looking at it under the microscope, it’s just—it’s spectacular. Because that’s where it is. That’s where a lot of the information is.

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Dr. Indrani Mukherjee: And you know, the stuff that you can see at a micron scale and then there’s this really big picture stuff. And so you’re constantly spanning across different time scales and different scales. Your minerals, the features that you’re looking at in the rocks are like one micron or slightly bigger, but they’ve been collected from a much larger feature that’s in order of kilometers or more than that. It’s extremely fascinating, but I feel like that needs to be out in the schools because I don’t think geology is talked about as much as it should be.

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Ben Newsome: What can be a lot of fun is if you’ve got such a thin section like that is even if you don’t understand it—and I absolutely guarantee you do—but as I was thinking about like when we put just a simply a polarizing filter over the top of that and then twisting it and watching the colors change.

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Dr. Indrani Mukherjee: Yeah, exactly. And just to have an understanding that the rocks are made up of different minerals and all of those minerals have different properties. I use certain minerals called pyrite in black shales that I’ve focused a lot on; other people would use other minerals. And it’s just the concept of what information minerals can store that form the rocks. So the rocks are composed of various different kinds of minerals and the information that’s stored within each mineral is incredible. So it’s almost like going back in time and reading through a history book but in a different way.

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Ben Newsome: Yeah, I mean when you look at the continents moving around with it sped up—if we get away from our perception of time just for a moment, there’s a lot going on. We’re just a little bit finite as a human. But when you actually watch what’s happening, this stuff moving around all the time, which means—for example, you mentioned studying in Delhi. One of the things I always talk about with kids is just how the Himalayas, they’re growing. They’re not static.

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Dr. Indrani Mukherjee: No. Not only is it growing, it’s causing a lot of erosion and a lot of nutrients going into our oceans. We don’t have big mountains in Australia right now, and therefore rates of erosion and nutrient flux into the ocean is much less. But we have to remember that what’s one of the highest points on Earth today was the bottom of the ocean a good few million years ago, or more than million years ago actually. But that’s the sort of big dynamic force that basically drives everything on Earth. So in terms of plate tectonics, it is basically the mountain-building activities and really intense erosion and the nutrient flux going into our oceans and driving organic matter productivity.

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Dr. Indrani Mukherjee: And basically the whole biogeochemical cycle is driven by the dynamic force of plate tectonics. And yeah, what we can see in action today in the Himalayas happened a long time ago in Australia, but things have changed now and we’re slowly moving up north—not much happening.

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Ben Newsome: True. I mean, as a teacher, and definitely any teachers listening in, listen to your kids’ questions because sometimes their questions are far deeper than they realize. And I cannot remember which scientist asked this 100 or 200 years ago, I’m terrible at names, but the story still works. Someone actually asked a very simple question—and you mentioned erosion happening in India and it’s happening all over the globe in different ways—asking, “If the Earth is static, why isn’t it flat?” Like, from a—I’m not talking flat earth, I’m talking about a ball. If you’ve got erosion, erosion by definition means stuff falling downhill. If everything’s not getting pushed up, at some point we’re going to get to a ball, but we’re not.

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Ben Newsome: And no one could answer this question. It was a simple question. And then it took a very long time, and even took all the way through to, I believe it was World War II, they were dragging some sort of magnetometer across the Atlantic Ridge and we noticed these weird anomalies of north-south north-south north-south north-south, these ridges going, “Hang on, this makes no sense because these rocks were formed at a particular point in time and they were facing towards geomagnetic north and they kept switching.” It was like, “This doesn’t make any sense.” And finally as people started to realize what was sort of happening, but there was a question asked a couple hundred years prior that no one could answer, which was simple: why does the Earth have mountains? They all should be eroded down to nothing by now.

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Dr. Indrani Mukherjee: Yeah, the whole concept of plate tectonics was kind of mind-blowing. I remember reading the first paper when they actually came up with the mechanism, because they had the theoretical concept but how it’s actually occurring—I think it was in the 1960s, I forget the name of the author, but it was absolutely sort of mind-boggling. And even the plate tectonics that we see today operating on modern Earth, it wasn’t quite the same back in the past. So even plate tectonics and the way it occurs, the plate movements, whether it’s converging or diverging, it’s changed a lot because Earth was much hotter back in the past.

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Dr. Indrani Mukherjee: And so we have—the temperatures have obviously cooled down in modern Earth. But back then when things were very hot, the convergent plate margins, the angle of subduction was pretty shallow. And so that changed the composition of the rock types that were—the magmatic compositions changed as well. And so because the plate tectonic style was slightly different to what it is now, the different rocks and their composition that were extruded were different as well. And so the composition of the Earth’s crust, which is obviously a result of plate tectonics as well, has also changed through time.

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Dr. Indrani Mukherjee: And so when we talk about erosion and weathering, we have to remember what exactly is being eroded. Because the products of erosion have not necessarily been the same. If it’s a certain rock type, it contains a lot of essential elements, and so you can have all the erosion and all the weathering, but if you’re eroding the wrong type of rocks, you’re not going to deliver the nutrients into our ocean. So because plate tectonic styles have been different to modern styles, the composition of the Earth’s crust has varied and that has also dictated what’s gone into our oceans.

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Dr. Indrani Mukherjee: And there were times when productivity in our oceans was fueled by the right kind of nutrient flux and sometimes it was very static and not much going on in terms of organic matter production—well, in simple terms, a lot of biological activity in our oceans. So yeah, our understanding—I mean, I was just reading not so long ago, we thought the Earth had an outer crust and then the mantle and the two different cores, one solid and one liquid. Now we’ve got an inner-inner.

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Ben Newsome: Yes, I saw that.

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Dr. Indrani Mukherjee: You know, this is way beyond my purview, but I’m fascinated. I have absolutely no idea how they do it. I mean, this is in the realm of geophysics really. But just think about it—we now know that there’s another core. This is how far we’ve come. And there’s so much more to be discovered in the geology space, but we just need our younger generation to fall in love with the field.

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Ben Newsome: And see that it’s just as much of a detective story.

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Dr. Indrani Mukherjee: Exactly. Exactly. It’s basically solving these mysteries and predicting what’s happening elsewhere too in so many different ways. And also, I suppose, eventually using that knowledge for good, which is the whole point of all this.

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Ben Newsome: So I was just curious, out of all the different things that you’ve read—I did read about that third core. It was wild as to how this all works. What are some of the standard misconceptions you see from the public when it comes to geology? What are the things that you hear nearly every time? Like, you know how as a science communicator, I’ll nearly always hear about why is the sky blue and you describe why the sky is blue and off you go. What are sort of things that come across your desk a lot or in public outreach that often have this idea and it’s fundamentally flawed? It’s not their fault, they just seem to ask it a lot.

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Dr. Indrani Mukherjee: Yeah, so two things. I think I did touch on one earlier on, but I’ll go through them again. That geology is all about mining and that we are the destroyers of the environment rather than the other way around. And the other thing that I come across a lot is that geology is very rough and that it’s not for women. Geology is very male-dominated and it’s not because women don’t want to pursue geology, but there have been a lot of barriers for women in geology. And we have to change that. We have about 50-50 in our undergrad, so there’s a lot of encouragement wherever you go, you see 50-50.

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Dr. Indrani Mukherjee: It’s a very STEM thing really, I should say. But it’s very stark—the disparity in geology or Earth sciences is rather stark. It’s an extremely male-dominated field, and I’ve got nothing against my male colleagues; some of my amazing mentors are male. But there is this misconception that you need to be rough and tough to be in geology. And fair enough, why not? But the assumption that women aren’t rough and tough is a common misconception. And so it deters a lot of young women trying to pursue a career in geology thinking, “Oh, maybe that’s—” because they can’t see and they can’t be what they can’t see.

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Dr. Indrani Mukherjee: And so quite often that is a huge deterrent. So in my opinion, the two main things that I’m most passionate about and I come across that in my geoscience communication too, Ben, there was a conference not so long ago about what are the challenges in geoscience for the next decade. And mine was the awareness of geology. I think as geologists, maybe we’re not doing enough to get ourselves out there in the public and letting everybody know what we’re doing, because it quite often is down to a few people on open days here and there about, “Come watch some rocks, oh look at some volcanoes,” and everyone has a sausage and goes home.

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Dr. Indrani Mukherjee: But maybe we need to do more, especially make everybody aware of what this branch of science has to offer in terms of the betterment of the planet. Because yes, while there can be examples where one very small branch of geology, which is mining, may have caused detriment to our environment, but there is lots that’s being done in this space through Earth sciences for the betterment of the planet and lots that can be done. So that needs to be very well articulated to the public to generate interest in the field. And then obviously take it up to policy makers as well.

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Dr. Indrani Mukherjee: You know, the really worrying thing for me is the lack of geology departments in various universities across the world. They’re getting rid of geology, which beggars belief. We want to save the planet, why are we getting rid of geology? And the other thing of course is getting women involved. And while I speak of women, I should mention that it’s true for any minority and it’s not restricted to just this, because gender is more than just male and female. But it can be true for any minority. If we want to have innovative solutions for the future—and I know this huge dialogue about we need to have diversity. It really matters.

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Dr. Indrani Mukherjee: And I know that because I’m from India and I have learned so much from interacting with people who are not Indian, let me just put it that way. And I think it goes both ways. I’ve got some insights that will not be offered necessarily by anyone else, and similarly the way others around me think may not necessarily be the way I think. And so when you’re in a research group and you’ve got this intense diversity, there is bound to be some friction. And I think that’s what puts people off, but I think that initial friction is absolutely needed. You’re going to say the wrong things, you’re going to make mistakes, and you’re going to offend people, and these things are bound to happen.

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Dr. Indrani Mukherjee: Once you get over it, it will be rewarding. I just wanted to get the message out—we’re so worried about making mistakes that we just try and avoid confrontation at all cost. Of course we’re going to make mistakes. We’re brought up in different cultures, we think differently, we’re going to have some friction, but there’s always a way to work things out. And I know that for a fact because I’ve made a life for myself in Australia. I didn’t think I would ever do that when I came here in 2014. And so having that diversity is really, really important and having women in geoscience or other minorities in geoscience would be very key.

[00:36:29]
Dr. Indrani Mukherjee: And unfortunately we only have the data for women and not other minorities. We’re cutting out 50% of the population right there. You’re just completely getting rid of all the things that they would have to offer off the table. And that’s not right or nice because if we want to come up with innovative solutions, different solutions, and have a bit of diversity in our thoughts, we have to have people from all backgrounds of life. I think these are the two main important things that I’m going to use as my place in the STEM program as well to get these two messages out.

[00:37:15]
Ben Newsome: 100%, and so you should. And it’s so good that as you walk the university halls that you’re seeing 50-50 at least from the gender balance starting to come through. That will then eventually go into postgraduate and so on, but the pipeline’s coming and you’re part of that, which is fantastic as a Superstar of STEM. So I guess a question is if you had a generic audience in front of you, a group of school students who were considering tossing up to become a physicist, to become a chemist, biologist, maybe I want to be a lawyer, doctor, whatever it is, what would be some advice for those kids speckled amongst that group who might be considering going into geology? What would be some advice that you’d give them?

[00:37:52]
Dr. Indrani Mukherjee: Well, the advice I can give them is that it doesn’t matter what your interest is, whether it’s physics, chemistry, biology, there’s a space for that in geology. So as long as they have the basic fundamentals of geology, they could pursue any of their pure science subjects with geology. Just having that—it’s like English was compulsory in my schooling and it was compulsory in my university education no matter what you did. It was just this core part that I needed, and I think that was really important for me to have a career overseas. And it would be the same thing about climate change or fundamentals of geology that everyone should know.

[00:38:37]
Dr. Indrani Mukherjee: Regardless of whether you’re a lawyer or a historian, it doesn’t matter even if it’s a non-STEM subject, even if you’re in the arts or the business, because there are non-traditional pathways for geology as well. Whether it’s geology and art—what chemicals are found in certain rocks that were used in certain art; or geology and banking—if you want advice on how the stock markets are going to work and how the minerals are doing and what’s the value of gold in the market. Doesn’t matter what, you will need geology or geology can provide an extra perspective and it’s a very handy thing to know.

[00:39:22]
Dr. Indrani Mukherjee: It will give you some of the really basic knowledge about not just pure science but the environment you’re living in. If you just wanted to have that basic fundamental knowledge, that would basically help in whichever field you want to have a career in. Even if you don’t want to be a geologist, even having that basic fundamental geological knowledge could help you in whichever field of science you’re involved in.

[00:39:51]
Ben Newsome: Absolutely. I agree. And the more I talk with people, the more they just really realize just how interconnected these disciplines truly are. They overlap all the time, and eventually we’re just people trying to solve a thing, whatever that might be.

[00:40:04]
Dr. Indrani Mukherjee: Yeah, we like dividing things up. I know for a fact, you know, I’m embarking on a journey of finding out the evolution of life and I’m not going to do that single-handedly just with my geological knowledge. The beauty of what we do is collaborating with people with different expertise. That’s why this whole thing about diversity that we hear is because you need that fresh perspective, different from what you are used to doing. We know we live in these little silos of geology, biology, and physics, but in actual fact everything is linked.

[00:40:49]
Dr. Indrani Mukherjee: And as a researcher or as a student in a high school, I think we must look into sort of bridging the gaps through research or through studying, just venturing into these different spaces and finding the links. I think it’s important to have that connection because no single branch of science can solve some of the biggest questions that we have as human beings.

[00:41:13]
Ben Newsome: That’s fantastic. Look, Indrani, this has been fantastic having a chat with you today. I just wonder, is there a spot where people can go and find out more about what you’re getting up to?

[00:41:23]
Dr. Indrani Mukherjee: Oh well, about me, they could always look me up on—I’m not on social media, would you believe? I’m such an ancient—well, even ancient people are on it.

[00:41:35]
Ben Newsome: Does that come with the geology side of things?

[00:41:37]
Dr. Indrani Mukherjee: Yeah, I have no idea. I’ve never been fascinated, and that’s something that has never fascinated me, which is social media. However, I am on LinkedIn and I do a lot of public lectures here and there and most of my stuff is readily available on YouTube. But if you were super interested in my research publications, they’re usually listed on the university web pages as well. The Superstars of STEM is a really good program and they update all the information on what the various scientists are up to as well. So yeah, there are various ways that one can find out about what I’m doing or just in general what geologists or Earth scientists are doing around the world.

[00:42:21]
Ben Newsome: Fantastic. And as usual, we’ll put those links in the show notes, so please check them. And it’s simple, you’re right, just Google and you shall find. That is true. Look, thank you so much for hanging out with me, Indrani. It’s been a real pleasure.

[00:42:33]
Dr. Indrani Mukherjee: Thanks Ben. I’m really glad I got the opportunity to talk about how amazing Earth sciences can be. So if you’re listening out there, please consider taking up Earth sciences because I can guarantee you you’re going to fall in love with this beautiful, beautiful branch of science of ours.

[00:42:53]
Ben Newsome: Well, hope you enjoyed that chat with Indrani. I found it fascinating to think about just where mineral deposits are formed, why on Earth do we have this thing called the origin of complex life, and all about early Earth evolution. It’s such an amazing topic, and it affects every one of us and it’s still ongoing to this day, which is an amazing thing. Now, if you want to go check out what she’s been doing in her research activities, go on over to the University of New South Wales website, so unsw.edu.au, search for Indrani.

[00:43:38]
Ben Newsome: And as usual, we’ll put the link in the show notes and you can find out all about what she’s been doing, the grants she’s involved in, and her research activities. And big heads-up, thumbs-up for Science and Technology Australia, because she is very much a Superstar of STEM, and no wonder she’s part of that group of amazing people. Hey, that’s the end of this particular podcast. You have been hanging out with me, Ben Newsome, for Fizzics Education. We do have more fascinating chats coming up on the Fizzics Ed Podcast and I hope to catch you another time.

[00:44:05]
ANNOUNCER: You’ve been listening to another Fizzics Ed Podcast. We’re excited about science. Subscribe to us on iTunes to download the next episode as soon as it’s released. And don’t forget, for hundreds of ideas, free experiments, our new Be Amazing book and more, go to fizzicseducation.com.au. That’s physics spelled F I Z Z I C S.

[00:44:33]
ANNOUNCER: This podcast is part of the Australian Educators Online Network. AEON.net.au.

Frequently Asked Questions

What does a deep-time geologist actually study?

A deep-time geologist like Dr Indrani Mukherjee investigates the Earth’s history over millions and billions of years. By analysing the chemical information stored within ancient rocks, they can reconstruct what the oceans were like in the past and determine the geological conditions that allowed complex life to first emerge.

Why is the “Boring Billion” period actually so important?

While often dismissed as a stable period in Earth’s history, Dr Mukherjee refers to it as the “Brilliant Billion.” This era (roughly 1800 to 800 million years ago) was a critical time for the evolution of the eukaryotic cell—the complex cell that makes up every multicellular organism on Earth today, including humans.

How does geology help us achieve net-zero emissions?

To transition to renewable energy, the world requires a massive supply of “green metals” like copper. Geologists are essential for finding these resources responsibly. Understanding the Earth’s crust and how mineral deposits form is the only way to secure the materials needed for electric vehicles, wind turbines, and solar infrastructure.

Are there really 3.5-billion-year-old structures in Australia?

Yes! Western Australia is home to some of the oldest stromatolites in the world. These structures were formed by ancient microbes that were responsible for oxygenating the Earth’s atmosphere. They essentially paved the way for oxygen-dependent macro life to exist billions of years later.

What is the biggest misconception about geology as a career?

A common misconception is that geology is purely about mining or that it requires a “rough and tough” personality, which often deters women and minorities. In reality, modern geoscience is a sophisticated “detective story” that uses advanced physics, chemistry, and biology to solve global environmental and resource challenges.

Extra thought ideas to consider

The Interconnectedness of STEM

Dr Mukherjee highlights that geology is not an isolated field. It acts as a bridge where physics, chemistry, and biology meet. When students study the chemistry of rocks, they are often solving biological questions about the origins of life or using physics to understand plate tectonics and planetary evolution.

Diversity as a Driver for Innovation

Having diverse voices in geoscience—including women, migrants, and various minorities—is crucial for innovation. Different cultural backgrounds and life experiences lead to different ways of thinking, which is essential for tackling complex problems like climate change that require creative, multi-faceted solutions.

Geology Beyond Earth

Our understanding of Earth’s geological history is the blueprint for finding life on other planets. By knowing what chemical signatures and mineral formations to look for here, geoscientists can help space agencies identify potentially habitable environments on Mars and beyond.

Discussion points summarised from the FizzicsEd Podcast, verified and edited by Ben Newsome CF