Audio Transcript

Published: November 3, 2017
APA 7 Citation: Newsome, B. (Host). (2017, November 3). Ep. 26 Code like a Girl [Audio podcast transcript]. Fizzics Education.
https://www.fizzicseducation.com.au/podcast/fizzicsed/code-like-a-girl/

Ben Newsome CF is the recipient of the 2023 UTS Chancellor’s Award for Excellence and a Churchill Fellow. He is a global leader in science communication and the founder of Fizzics Education.

[00:00:00]
Ally Watson: We tell them, this is what being a programmer is. This is what it looks like, and this is my story. And so these little girls are going home and they’re getting really inspired by the women who facilitate the sessions, and they’re saying, “Mum, Dad, I want to be a coder when I grow up, just like Ally or Lindsay, or whoever’s running the workshop.”

[00:00:21]
Announcer: Meet Ally Watson, a computer science graduate and a developer who knows first-hand just what it’s like to work in a male-dominated industry. She’s really setting out to change the world.

[00:00:30]
Announcer: You’re listening to the Fizzics Ed Podcast. For hundreds of ideas, free experiments and more, go to fizzicseducation.com.au. And now, here’s your host, Ben Newsome.

[00:00:46]
Ben Newsome: Yes, welcome again to another Fizzics Ed Podcast. Hey, it’s a big week yet again. This week we are speaking with a good friend of ours, Ally Watson. Now Ally heads up and co-founded the programme called Code Like a Girl. That is a start-up that has really taken Australia by storm because just have a think about it, you’ve got libraries and schools from all over the place having girls coming on in and learning how coding and programming truly works. And tell you what, it’s not just about how coding works, it’s more importantly about how can they enter the industry and critically, lead it. And Ally and the team are doing a fantastic job about that.

[00:01:20]
Ben Newsome: In this chat, we get to speak with Ally and find out what makes her tick and why she set this thing up. And I wondered just how far this is going to go. They’re really doing so well. The only thing is that we have a bit of a problem with the audio. It was a little bit scratchy, a little bit of an issue because we did have a web conferencing platform that was struggling a little bit. So you’ll hear a bit of scratchy voices here and there, but really it’s not about that. It comes down to what Ally has to say and I tell you what, it’s well worth the time. Let’s listen on in to Ally from Code Like a Girl.

[00:01:53]
Announcer: This is the Fizzics Ed Podcast.

[00:01:56]
Ally Watson: Thank you, Ben, for having me.

[00:01:58]
Ben Newsome: No, totally. Really happy to have you, and especially seeing that you’re a person who’s been nailing teaching kids how to code across the place. How on earth did you get into this?

[00:02:11]
Ally Watson: Well, it really started as a passion project for me. So I have a degree in computer science. I’ve been working as a web developer for the last seven years, mostly working in creative agencies, small little businesses and agencies. And so very, very often I am the only girl on the team. I’ve even been the only girl in offices I’ve worked in, in whole companies. And so I realised that more needed to be done to engage girls and get them into technology. I wanted to see that gender gap really narrow and get smaller because currently there’s just so little girls that are interested in the technology industry.

[00:02:58]
Ally Watson: So what started as really a side project and events where I was bringing women together to talk about technology, that sort of took off and gained really great momentum and popularity around Melbourne. And I realised I could take this further and really make a difference with it, not just bringing girls together to network, but how about we bring an educational aspect to it? These girls were thirsty for knowledge and thirsty for the skills in technology after coming to our events, after hearing from local role models in the technology industry, they wanted to learn the skills themselves.

[00:03:39]
Ally Watson: And so Code Like a Girl went from just a sort of casual meetup at night in Melbourne to then providing educational workshops for women and girls really of all ages now.

[00:03:50]
Ben Newsome: I love the fact that you said it sort of took off. I don’t know about sort of is quite the right word here. I mean, how many events and classes are you now running?

[00:04:04]
Ally Watson: Well, it’s hard to say because we do run things a little bit ad hoc. I mean, you’re right, sort of is probably an understatement. But something that I was super passionate about up front was I wanted to create a community, and you don’t just create communities by doing one-off events or one-off workshops. Community is commitment, and you have to keep them active and you have to offer services that is continuously bringing people together.

[00:04:32]
Ally Watson: So right from the get-go, even our events, I made a promise to myself to make sure that they were bi-monthly, every second month. And then with the workshops, the way we run them is quite tech agnostic. So how we create the workshops is we bring on volunteers, and our volunteers are usually developers just like myself who’ve been working in the industry who want to give back. And so what we do is we take their expertise and create introductory workshops. So say you’re a C# developer, which is what I am. We would basically take your knowledge and create a digestible and easy-to-follow introductory class based on that.

[00:05:17]
Ally Watson: So the popularity and the regularity of our workshops really is determined by how many volunteers we have on board. What’s their availability and how willing are they to give back to the community? And so what we’re doing now is we’re probably getting about four workshops a month. Really, it’s actually just so wonderful to be in a development community that just want to give back. But it’s really dictated by them. And so we see that growing and growing as the months go on. Currently we’re doing the workshops just in Melbourne, but we’re looking to grow them nationally, so looking at Sydney next and potentially Adelaide.

[00:05:58]
Ben Newsome: And it’s so fantastic that you’re making it accessible. I mean, running it after school and whatnot. I mean, what sort of ages are coming to these events?

[00:06:06]
Ally Watson: We offer ages from Grade 1 all the way up to Grade 12. And then we also do adult workshops which is pretty much anyone from 16 and over. And what we’re seeing is Grades 1 to 6, they are so popular. I don’t know if it’s the parents who are just wanting to get rid of their kids for a couple of hours or if there’s genuinely such an interest in technology from these young kids. But they sell out within probably a day of being online.

[00:06:35]
Ally Watson: Whereas what we’re seeing is the older groups, maybe Grades 7 to 12, they’re usually a slower uptake. But no matter what age, what we’re seeing is they come to the workshops and they realise how fun coding really is. And I don’t know if that’s maybe our unique content or the way that we really deliver the content. I’m not sure, but I guess it’s getting the girls exposure because some of them are not even coding at school just yet. There are some schools that don’t have the coding lessons in place yet and so their first experience is at a Code Like a Girl workshop.

[00:07:07]
Ben Newsome: That’s so cool. And the fact that they can do this bi-monthly as a minimum. I mean, I agree, being able to run a programme and then see them later, and you never get to see the educational return that you delivered them. Now being able to see them grow over time is so rewarding without a doubt. So yeah, how long have you been running these?

[00:07:25]
Ally Watson: So we’ve been running Code Like a Girl events for two years, and the workshops for just over 12 months. So we introduced the workshops probably about 12 months into starting up the organisation. And then yeah, we’ve now got our format in place. So I guess I could tell you a little bit about what it’s like to come to a Code Like a Girl workshop. We really start off the girls with some fun offline activities which you think, coding, you think straight on the laptops. Well, not at a Code Like a Girl workshop.

[00:07:58]
Ally Watson: We tend to do really fun icebreakers. One example of one is we basically draw a big sorting algorithm on the floor with chalk and we get all the girls to be numbers or letters or words. And so we teach them how computers sort using algorithms and they have to physically be the logistics of that algorithm. And it gets them thinking already, right, how do computers think? But it also really breaks the ice because these girls, some of them are really shy, this is out their comfort zone, it’s something they’ve never done before. And so doing these fun offline activities is a really great way to settle nerves and get them laughing and it becomes a really sociable environment straight away.

[00:08:44]
Ally Watson: The second thing we do is we tell our stories. So Code Like a Girl workshops are all facilitated by women who are in the industry. And the importance of that cannot be, I can’t even just stress how important that aspect of a Code Like a Girl workshop is. Because we tell them, this is what being a programmer is, this is what it looks like and this is my story. And so these little girls are going home and getting really inspired by the women who facilitate the sessions and they’re saying, “Mum, Dad, I want to be a coder when I grow up just like Ally or Lindsay,” or whoever’s running the workshop.

[00:09:21]
Ally Watson: And then the third thing we do is each one of our workshops, they’re usually held at tech companies. So the tech industry and companies at the moment, they do anything to keep the best developers under their house. And so what they mean is they have foosball tables, beer fridges stocked, some of the coolest offices you’ve ever seen are usually tech companies. And when we run our workshops from these companies, the little girls are just like, “I need to work here when I’m older.” And so this combination of female empowerment, role modelling, the cool tech scene, we’re really painting a picture for them to what their future could be. And those combination of things really engages them.

[00:10:02]
Ben Newsome: I was just thinking listening to that, thinking there’s this real movement on people developing learning spaces in schools that actually entice kids to learn. Who would have thought, let’s make learning spaces kids actually want to learn in? But wouldn’t it just be cool if the ICT room was developed in the same way? I mean, let’s be honest, there’s always the funding side of things, but gee, throw a couple of beanbags in and a foosball table, it would at least break the ice somewhat.

[00:10:35]
Ally Watson: Absolutely. I couldn’t agree more.

[00:10:41]
Ben Newsome: Like my little girl, she’s eight years old, in Year 2 about to go to Year 3, and she does a very good job. She’s a good little kid but she loves code.org. I mean, there’s something about code.org just grabs her real attention because she gets to make these little games, playing around with stuff and it’s really just logic-based stuff and it’s not over the top. But she says, “I love coding,” and this is a child who finds mathematics difficult but code she finds is an absolute breeze and I think it’s really helping her beyond coding.

[00:11:15]
Ally Watson: Yeah, absolutely. I think the gamification of these kind of platforms and how they’re using fun gaming techniques to grab the kids’ interest is amazing. And we use code.org in some of our very younger-based workshops and the kids just love them. They just get sucked in and you can’t get them away from the laptop.

[00:11:36]
Ben Newsome: Absolutely. And I love what you’re talking about with the sorting algorithm with no computers, no laptops, no iPads, nothing, just let’s work on the floor with logic-based thinking. It’s really good. I mean, it reminds me of a game we play with our students when we do Lego robotics, where it’s simply, “Kids, make me stand up, make me walk here and pick up an apple.” And it’s such a ridiculous thing but the number of times I have to brace myself because I’m going to fall on the floor, it works because the kids just get their head around just how complex simple things might actually be to get done.

[00:12:15]
Ally Watson: Yes, absolutely. And it’s a great technique for breaking things down. Like programming in its essence is just problem-solving. And even whether it’s a small problem or a big problem, the way you tackle that in terms of programming it is you break it down into little bits and pieces. And so it gets them to understand how a programme is made, even if it’s very high level, but it’s still getting into that sequential way of thinking and that’s so crucial to that first step of learning to code. So yeah, it’s really great.

[00:12:49]
Ben Newsome: So I mean this might be putting you on the spot a little bit, but I’ve just kind of wondered, these little mini incubators you’re basically running, you’d have kids working on their own projects and they’d be at all sorts of levels. What are the sort of things that you’ve seen kids working on as their own projects?

[00:13:06]
Ally Watson: Probably one of my favourite ones I’ll tell you about. So we did this HTML and CSS class and we did it for ages 7 through to 11. And everyone’s always really shocked when they hear a seven-year-old learning HTML and CSS. But I always say these kids are capable of so much at a very young age that just because as adults it intimidates us doesn’t mean it intimidates them. And we had this seven-year-old and she created her own webpage and it was the most, I mean we were all in fits of laughter.

[00:13:36]
Ally Watson: She made this little webpage and the background was made up of a GIF of a dog eating pizza. And so this was repeated on the background and then the whole page was like, she had embedded YouTube videos and images of just lots and lots of cute dogs. So obviously she was a dog fan. But there was just something about it that I just thought, this is so cool. I wanted to show the world. And we had other girls, Harry Potter fans, and so what they had done is created these like, Potterland type fan websites.

[00:14:14]
Ally Watson: And it’s just so amazing to watch them take what they’re passionate about and create something online about it. And that’s how it starts, just following what you’re passionate about and finding a project that you can apply your passion to. Because I think that’s the problem with coding in some of the education systems, it doesn’t have context to yourself. You don’t have a personal relationship with it or you can’t find a way to relate to it. When I learned programming, it felt like the things I was learning were so out of context, they didn’t have a real-life application or it was hard to figure out how to get excited about it.

[00:14:53]
Ally Watson: And so when you give the girls the tools and leave them to their own creativity to just bring ideas to life, I think that’s when you see them light up. That’s when you see them get engaged and get really into it, is when you give them that empowerment and freedom to do what they want with the tools that you give them. And so yeah, that was probably the funniest thing I’ve seen one of the girls make.

[00:15:15]
Ben Newsome: That’s really, really cool. I totally agree what you’re saying with having context. I mean, I vaguely recall, and this pretty much shows my age, but I do remember being shown some programming language back in the early 90s as a kid in high school and it was really, it was just FORTRAN or whatever it was. It was just this just here’s some boxes, here’s some very heavy text and number base. It was really stiff.

[00:15:47]
Ben Newsome: It was and then I was looking at going, “Please I might as well learn another language.” And I suppose I was learning another language but it wasn’t presented to me that way. It was just, here are some boxes, here are some random words and numbers in those boxes, here are some arrows flowing as a flowchart, and please memorise it because the test is on Friday. It told me nothing. But I learned the test, I mean apparently I got well on the test, but I didn’t know whether I was actually writing, I just knew what to answer on the test. It’s crazy.

[00:16:19]
Ally Watson: Yeah. And I think what’s really, I think when you compare, it’s just almost incomparable like what we probably went through. Even when I first studied computer science, that was oh god, how long ago, seven years ago I got my degree. So things have changed so much. Like when you look at some of the most successful companies of right now, we’re thinking Facebook, Uber, Google, and all of those companies, they were just lines of code one day that someone wrote in their basement. And that alone I think has shifted this new era of entrepreneurs.

[00:16:53]
Ally Watson: That is the potential future. Like it’s just another tool to really make your ideas successful. And I think kids nowadays must just be really inspired with those stories.

[00:17:08]
Ben Newsome: With kids attending your class and I actually wonder also too the parents themselves dropping the kids off. I wonder how many of these kids want to be the Zuckerbergs of the future or whatnot, or are they just there for the fun of it? I wonder what’s going through their head as to what’s their end game of this. I mean, surely as young kids they don’t really care, they just want to play with it a little bit. But I wonder about the high schoolers about what they think is the point of learning the coding. Have you asked them that?

[00:17:40]
Ally Watson: Yeah, well, funny you say that. I was actually at a school in Tasmania last week. So we went down, me and a few friends who are part of a big campaign called Choose Maths, and we’re really trying to drive more girls into choosing maths in further education. And so we went down and there was four of us: I was a programmer, one of the other girls was a data scientist, the other worked for Boeing. And it was all these amazing engineering and technology careers.

[00:18:10]
Ally Watson: We went round, I think it was six different schools and all the girls were brought to meet us for the day and we did a panel. And yeah, it was great. And so we all told our stories and told them what it was like to be us, living in a day-in-the-life of a coder or day-in-the-life of an engineer. And so these girls at the end of it, you’re never sure the impact you have, but once we’d all finished, it came to the panel and I thought, I’m going to ask the crowd.

[00:18:35]
Ally Watson: I’m going to ask these girls what an impact that had on them. Did it change their mind? Did they already know this information, or are they all still just set for the same paths they were before they walked in the door? And I said, “Who in this room changed their mind today after hearing what we all had to say? Who has changed what they’ve decided to do?” And almost every single one of them raised their hand. And it was the first time that I’ve felt like the impact of what we’ve said really mattered, like it really changed.

[00:19:07]
Ally Watson: And I think there’s such a disconnect between the education system and the industry because the industry moves so fast now. There’s jobs that weren’t around five years ago, two years ago, even one year ago, that are today. And it’s so hard for them to be accurate and up to date with this information and also get people in these jobs to come and speak to the girls. But I was kind of mind-blown that some of the women in the room, some of the high school girls in the room had no idea that these careers existed.

[00:19:36]
Ally Watson: Now that they know, now that they’ve heard our stories, are really considering it in terms of their future education. So yeah, I think it’s just such a privilege to be able to do that through this organisation and through other organisations like the Choose Maths campaign. So it is definitely worthwhile.

[00:19:54]
Ben Newsome: Yeah, definitely is worthwhile. I was thinking about even just our listenership. I mean, hi to all the listeners there. I know that we have teachers listening, we have education supervisors, directors of curriculum, we’ve got people who work in museums and all sorts of people. The listenership is broad and diverse and undoubtedly there’d be some people in positions where they can actually look at their own curriculum. And I kind of wonder, if you had the chance, just say you could be able to wave said magic wand and everything just worked perfectly.

[00:20:34]
Ben Newsome: What advice could you give, especially to someone who actually has the power to change curriculum? What advice could you at least give them to be able to help them look at how curriculum meshes with especially the tech industry seeing it move so fast and considering how slow curriculum change actually can be? It’s difficult. What’s any advice you can give? I mean it’s a tough question.

[00:20:59]
Ally Watson: Yeah, it’s very difficult. And there’s never a solution. I’ve been hearing… so I come from the UK and we had coding mandatory from 2014 in our primary schools. And what the UK are seeing now is… so I used to always feel like right, we need coding in schools from a very early age, that was my big message. But the thing is teachers just don’t have the skill sets. I mean, hopefully their education, I mean hopefully degrees now, teaching degrees will introduce it, hopefully they’ll do modules in coding.

[00:21:32]
Ally Watson: But what the UK are suffering from at the moment is they took all their teachers and taught them how to code. And what they started seeing is the teachers started leaving the education system to get coding jobs because they were better paid, better work sort of life balance. And that is no good. Like, I guess solutions would be to better pay teachers, give teachers the right resources and skill them in the areas of technology. But I would also love to see a cross-collaboration.

[00:21:58]
Ally Watson: The industry isn’t just the IT industry or the tech industry. It is a cross-collaboration of different disciplines. Like you don’t just, you know, for me instance, I’ve always worked in creative agencies. I love working on projects that are short-term projects on websites or mobile apps that are sort of campaign-driven and very strongly creative and design-focused. And that’s one sector. You know, how about you create a tech, a creative coding class at high school where girls who are interested in art can bring their art to life with code?

[00:22:33]
Ally Watson: Or there’s ways that you can use tech and art, and you could pretty much do that with every discipline where you bring in tech subtly and teach coding subtly through other subjects. So that would be something that I would love to see happen. How you’d go about doing that is another story, but if I could just dream it up tomorrow, that’s what I would like to see.

[00:22:54]
Ben Newsome: The good news is there are thousands upon thousands of schools across Australia alone, let alone around the planet. I would love, wouldn’t it be just a cool impact of this particular podcast that someone reaches out to you and goes, “You know what? I’m ready to have a go. Ally, let’s play with one class and see what happens.” Wouldn’t that just be neat, that a genuine impact of people who have a chance? That’d be cool.

[00:23:25]
Ally Watson: I’d be very interested in helping that one.

[00:23:30]
Ben Newsome: I bet. And that’s the problem with having two people who constantly live in the future talking together on a podcast. It’s dear oh dear, but that would be sort of fun. So flipping it the other way. Just say you had a 13-year-old girl and she knows she loves code. She’s been doing coding for a while at home, her teacher’s been very supportive with it and all the rest. And she knows that she wants to enter IT in some way, shape or form, let’s just say it was in engineering, whatever, at least it gives them a sort of direction. What sort of advice would you give to this young girl who’s about to go through a formal high school to prepare herself for entering the industry that is IT? What would be the advice that you give?

[00:24:20]
Ally Watson: I’d say that she’s definitely on the right footsteps. When I compare what it was like for me starting computer science, I had no knowledge of programming to begin with and that was quite a learning curve. So she’s definitely on the right foot. But my advice would be stay in touch with the industry. Sometimes I think it’s quite a large leap going from education to university and then from university straight into the industry because they’re quite still a little bit sort of unconnected and quite disconnected.

[00:24:52]
Ally Watson: So my advice would be to continuously try and get internships, even when you’re starting out. The industry is shifting. The industry used to expect ready-made coders out of uni. But now they’re realising that they have to play a bigger part in this education and upskilling. So a lot of companies are doing apprenticeships, a lot of companies are doing 12-month internships that go into full-time jobs. Companies like MYOB, Envato, they’re just a few of the Australian ones that I know are really taking a big step in terms of taking on responsibility of upskilling.

[00:25:28]
Ally Watson: So I would say connect with these companies. There’s so many amazing tech companies in Australia, absolute giants doing great things: Canva, Campaign Monitor, you’ve got Google over here. So many that you could engage with, even from a young age, to be involved either in their events or in work experience. And so my advice would just be get in straight away because that gives you, it really opens your mind into the networks that are available. And I think also just going along to events.

[00:25:59]
Ally Watson: So like I was saying before, the tech industry moves so quick and there’s always a new product, new technology, new language, new platform that you should be checking out that everybody’s onto. And so it is impossible to stay up to date with what’s happening. So my advice is go along to tech meetups, go along to tech events. That way you surround yourself and you create a peer network. And that not only gives you that motivation and that socialisation that you kind of need that helps in your learning, but it also keeps you updated with what’s happening without having to sort of make much effort or do too much research yourself.

[00:26:38]
Ally Watson: By having these strong networks and going along to these events, you can stay up to date and really be involved of what’s happening in the community. Because what’s beautiful about the tech industry is the community side of things. There’s so many people out there who just love sharing their knowledge and talking and presenting. And I’ve always wanted to do this as a personal challenge of mine, that I would love to go a whole month, and I bet I could do it, there’s normally a technology event every single night in Melbourne, whether it’s on JavaScript or CMSs or artificial intelligence, there’s always a meetup on technology.

[00:27:18]
Ally Watson: And so you could probably go every day in a month, go along, grab a beer, get some pizza, all for free, and get all that information. Imagine what you could learn in a month by just going along to these meetups at night. And so yeah, my advice is just get involved because it’s such a welcoming and great community to be part of.

[00:27:35]
Ben Newsome: Oh gosh, and if you’re a uni student too, free beer, free pizza, you don’t have to worry about your dinner each night, no problem and you get to learn as well. That’s a win.

[00:27:43]
Ally Watson: Absolutely.

[00:27:45]
Ben Newsome: And for the kids under 18, I’m sure there’s soft drink and soda and water and all things correct for younger people too. But I love that there is this real, it’s not even grassroots anymore, this is outright main stage. This is what’s going on in serious companies and for good reason. I mean, they need the talent to be able to drive these engines that are these huge businesses and it’s got to come from somewhere. And why not the students that are right around the corner? That’s awesome.

[00:28:16]
Ben Newsome: Cool, so there’ll be people, speaking of the community and everything else, there’ll be people who would love to get in touch with you, I guarantee it. And look, please, I challenge you, someone who would love to have their school involved in a bit of an incubator yourself to try some different things. How would we get in touch with Ally?

[00:28:32]
Ally Watson: So you can reach me through the website, so we are on codelikeagirl.org. You can also reach out to us on Twitter, we’re at @codelikeagirlau. And yeah, you can, if you get in touch with us through those means, there’s a contact page with a contact form, and then we also, yeah, you can give us a tweet or even on Facebook, we’re on Facebook too and Instagram. So yeah, you’ll find us.

[00:29:00]
Ben Newsome: Absolutely. And actually, if your students have created a cool little web page or a cool little app that’s publicly accessible, why not send Ally that link? I’m sure they’d love to check it out.

[00:29:12]
Ally Watson: Absolutely. We would love that.

[00:29:14]
Ben Newsome: Look, thank you very much. Look, thank you very much for Ally for coming through and thanks for the people listening in too. I know we’ve had a bit of fun with the audio just slightly cutting out here and there. I know that Ally is caught in a bit of a concrete bunker where she is, so I suppose that is exactly what you get when you’re working in an IT complex, maybe in the basement with a hoodie on and working hard with pizza next to you or something like that.

[00:29:36]
Ben Newsome: But we get the idea. But look, much appreciate, Ally. I’ve had a ball having a chat with you and no doubt we might even catch up at one of these upcoming meetups. You might be up in Sydney soon and we get to see what you’re doing with Code Like a Girl very soon up here too.

[00:29:50]
Ally Watson: Yeah, absolutely. We’ve got a meetup coming up in November in Sydney. So I will, I think details go on the website early October, so people should keep an eye out to check that out.

[00:30:00]
Ben Newsome: Awesome, and we’ll put all those links in the show notes up as well. And this will go out just about in time to let people know about that too, which is fantastic timing. So look, if you can get along, please do. They’ll be very, very cool.

[00:30:13]
Ally Watson: Oh, excellent. Thanks, Ben. Speak to you soon. Bye.

[00:30:17]
Announcer: This is the Fizzics Ed Podcast. We’re all about science, ed tech and more. To see 100 fun free experiments you can do with your class, go to fizzicseducation.com.au. That’s physics spelled F I Z Z I C S and click 100 free experiments.

[00:30:35]
Ben Newsome: How great is Ally from Code Like a Girl? She’s been doing a fantastic job, really inspiring kids right across Australia to get involved in computer science. And considering that she only got going a bit earlier than last year, but only just, this is a great story and they really are in multiple cities around the place. And I’ve got this funny suspicion they’re going to go further than that. Well done Ally and the team, you really are rocking it.

[00:30:57]
Ben Newsome: Hey, what are my learnings out of this? Number one for me was just get involved. If anyone listening to this knows a child that could be getting involved in computer science, now’s the time. Look up Code Like a Girl and there are certainly areas in libraries and schools and all sorts of things where they can come into a fun environment and learn from others about how to solve problems in the computer world. And more importantly, hey, it’s a cool club to be in to actually hang around with your peers and kick around the place. I reckon you’d have a great time.

[00:31:29]
Ben Newsome: Hey, number two for me was it’s the story that matters. It’s not so much moving integers around and parentheses and all the stuff that you need to do in code, it’s why you’re doing it. What are you trying to actually solve? And when you start thinking about that, that’s really how we should be thinking when we’re teaching our kids is not so much the topic or the content itself, it’s why are we doing it and what’s the relevance? And that’s certainly what Ally and the team are definitely doing.

[00:31:55]
Ben Newsome: Number three for me is well, coding is a fact of life. Coding and problem-solving and all that sort of programming logic is embedded in many of our facets of our lives. And so even if you don’t find yourself as a computer programmer, just understanding how these things work is probably a good idea because they’re going to become more and more involved with our life. Everything from iRobot vacuum cleaners to autonomous cars, they are going to be all over the place. And I think the idea of understanding what they can do and what their limitations are will really put us in great stead.

[00:32:26]
Announcer: Thanks for listening to the Fizzics Ed Podcast. Love your science? We do too. Here’s this episode’s education tip of the week. Grab your pencil and get ready to make some notes.

[00:32:37]
Ben Newsome: This week I’d really like to look at the idea that you can actually teach about how robotics actually works even if you don’t have robots or computers. Really, you actually can. I mean, kids often think that the average robot is very intelligent and they expect that robots can, well, think for themselves with very little input from humans. And that’s often from after watching movies and cartoons and whatever else. I mean, who could blame them?

[00:32:57]
Ben Newsome: So a great way to show the difficulties in programming robots can be by asking students to give you commands as if you are a robot in the room. Look, the trick of this lesson is to be incredibly, incredibly pedantic. Insist on requiring every tiniest bit of information that will allow you as the robot to achieve whatever the goal might be. And you’d be amazed how much these students will find this highly amusing. They’ll find it a little bit frustrating, but at the same time, they’ll find it incredibly engaging as they try to grapple with this problem.

[00:33:31]
Ben Newsome: How can they get you to move to a place to pick something up? Seriously, put an apple, put some grapes, put something. I must say I like doing the grapes thing. Put some grapes on a table somewhere and ask the kids to get you to walk across the room and pick up the grapes. It seems simple, right? But when you think about it, think of all the joints, your ankles, your knees and how you’ve got to move your legs to actually move. It’s actually more difficult to describe than you’d think.

[00:34:00]
Ben Newsome: And so you imagine it, you’re standing in front of the kids and they say, “Right, walk towards the table” and you look at it and just go, “Does not compute. How do I move my legs?” in a robotic voice like, you might as well ham it up. At this point the kids will look puzzled, but they’ll start thinking about, well, maybe you’ve got to teach them how… they’ve got to teach you how to move yourself. So they’ll tell you to raise your leg, so you go, “Does not compute, which leg do I raise?” etc. etc.

[00:34:26]
Ben Newsome: When they finally tell you to do your left or your right leg, lift your leg up from your hip, keeping a nice straight leg right outwards, the kids will look at you funny and they’ll realise they have to get you to bend your knee and so on and so forth. And by the time they get you to the table it’s probably taken ages. Now they’ll tell you to pick up the grapes, and because they’ll undoubtedly not tell you how much pressure to use your hand, you then crush the grapes in your hand.

[00:34:49]
Ben Newsome: The mess goes everywhere, the kids go “Oh!” because they’ve been trying to get you to do the task, and they suddenly realise that all these things need to be put in place for a robot to do the task that you seemingly find quite easy. And that is inherently what this is actually about: showing kids that, you know what, in robotics you have to think about all sorts of parameters and bits and pieces. And hopefully, maybe you can be setting up a situation where the robot itself can start learning from its own environment because that’s actually where intelligence is.

[00:35:21]
Announcer: This is the Fizzics Ed Podcast. We’re excited about science. Grab a copy of our new book, Be Amazing: How to Teach Science the Way Primary Kids Love, from our website. Just search Be Amazing Book. It’s available in hard copy and ebook. Go to fizzicseducation.com.au. That’s physics spelled F I Z Z I C S.

[00:35:43]
Ben Newsome: When it comes down to it, what Ally Watson and the team at Code Like a Girl are really doing are teaching kids to think in a way that’s logical. It’s all about computational reasoning, it’s computational thinking done in a fun way. And Neil Bramsen in last week’s episode certainly had a bit to think about that too.

[00:35:56]
Neil Bramsen: That logical thinking process and being able to apply that to a range of learning areas and a range of opportunities is what it’s about. And coding is one way of getting there without doubt, and it is a good way with the likes of Lego and Spheros and Ozobots and what have you. It doesn’t really matter which toy you use, it’s sort of what you get at the end. So that computational thinking is a biggie for us.

[00:36:15]
Ben Newsome: Yes, it’s definitely worth checking out last week’s episode because Neil Bramsen is also the recent winner of the 2017 Prime Minister’s Prize for Excellence in Science Teaching in Primary Schools. So he seriously knows what he’s talking about when it comes to teaching STEM to young kids. So definitely go check that out.

[00:36:31]
Announcer: Thanks for listening to the Fizzics Ed Podcast. Sign up now for our fortnightly email newsletter. It’s loaded with details on new experiments you can do, STEM teaching articles, new gadgets, exclusive offers and upcoming events. Go to fizzicseducation.com.au, scroll to the bottom and add your email.

[00:36:48]
Ben Newsome: And that just brings us to the end of yet another Fizzics Ed Podcast. Hey, I hope you had a lot of fun with this. We’ve got more coming up though. Next week we’re speaking with Danielle Leggo from the education team at Sydney Olympic Park Authority. It’s quite interesting getting to speak with someone amongst the mangroves at the education centre in Sydney Olympic Park and hearing about what they’ve been doing about teaching kids about the environment was certainly well worth the time.

[00:37:08]
Ben Newsome: But until then, I hope your museum, your zoo, your aquarium, your school, your library, wherever it is that you’re hanging out and working with learners, I hope you’re making it as engaging and as fun as possible and hoping there’s a bit of deeper meaning to what you’re actually doing for the kids so they can understand how their world works. You’ve been listening to me, Ben Newsome, from Fizzics Education. And this is the Fizzics Ed Podcast. I might catch you next week. All the best.

[00:37:31]
Announcer: You’ve been listening to another Fizzics Ed Podcast. We’re excited about science. Subscribe to us on iTunes to download the next episode as soon as it’s released. And don’t forget, for hundreds of ideas, free experiments, our new Be Amazing book and more, go to fizzicseducation.com.au. That’s physics spelled F I Z Z I C S.

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Frequently Asked Questions

What inspired the creation of Code Like a Girl?
Ally Watson, a computer scientist and web developer, often found herself as the only woman on her team or even within her entire company. She started the organisation as a passion project to help narrow the gender gap in technology by creating a community where women and girls could network, find role models, and gain technical skills.

Why does the programme include “offline” or “unplugged” activities instead of going straight to laptops?
These activities, such as physically acting out a sorting algorithm on the floor, serve two purposes. Firstly, they act as icebreakers to settle nerves and create a sociable environment for students who might feel out of their comfort zone. Secondly, they teach the fundamental logic and sequential thinking required for programming—framing it as a problem-solving exercise—before students ever touch a keyboard.

What role does the physical environment play in the Code Like a Girl workshops?
Workshops are frequently held at actual tech companies. By bringing students into modern offices that feature foosball tables and relaxed cultures, the programme helps girls visualise a future career in technology. This exposure to the “cool” side of the industry, combined with female role modelling, makes a career in programming feel attainable and exciting.

Why is there often a disconnect between school curricula and the technology industry?
The tech industry moves at a lightning pace, with new languages and job roles emerging every year, whereas curriculum changes are historically slow. Furthermore, many schools struggle with a lack of teachers who have the necessary technical skills. In countries like the UK, where coding was made mandatory, many teachers who upskilled in programming ended up leaving the education system for better-paying roles in the private sector.

How can young people stay relevant in an industry that evolves so quickly?
Ally recommends that students stay in touch with the industry through internships, work experience, and attending local tech meetups. Building a peer network allows students to stay updated on new platforms and languages naturally through social interaction, rather than relying solely on formal research or slow-moving textbooks.

Extra thought ideas to consider

Addressing the “Teacher Drain” in STEM:
As discussed in the interview, the UK experienced a trend of teachers leaving the classroom once they acquired high-level coding skills. To build a sustainable tech-literate generation, we must consider how to make the teaching profession more competitive with the private sector. This might involve higher salaries for technical specialists or more formalised “cross-collaboration” models where industry professionals are regularly rotated into schools to support educators.

Coding as a Creative Tool, Not Just a Maths Extension:
Many students, particularly girls who might be intimidated by traditional mathematics, find success in coding when it is presented through a creative lens. By integrating programming into subjects like art, music, or fan-culture projects (such as the Harry Potter websites mentioned), we can attract a more diverse demographic of thinkers who see code as a tool for expression rather than just a series of rigid equations.

The Waning Interest in High School:
The podcast highlights that while primary-aged workshops sell out in a day, interest in high school age groups is often slower. Educators and industry leaders should investigate what happens during the transition to secondary school that causes this drop-off. Is it a lack of social relevance, a shift in peer pressure, or the way the curriculum becomes more “stiff” and test-oriented as students age? Finding ways to maintain the “gamified” and sociable aspect of early coding is likely key to retention.