Audio Transcript

Published: December 9, 2017
APA 7 Citation: Newsome, B. (Host). (2017, December 9). Educational Leadership with STANSW [Audio podcast transcript]. Fizzics Education.
https://www.fizzicseducation.com.au/podcast/fizzicsed/educational-leadership/

Ben Newsome CF is the recipient of the 2023 UTS Chancellor’s Award for Excellence and a Churchill Fellow. He is a global leader in science communication and the founder of Fizzics Education.

[00:00:00]
Margaret Shepherd: I think building a relationship with people is the most important. And having that trusting and open relationship where I can say, yeah, I don’t know, and not feel that anyone is saying, well, you should know. Well, no, I don’t. I don’t know everything, and it’s okay, let’s work it out together. So bringing the skills that a leader has or a more experienced person has to the table is as equally important as new people coming in and bringing in their new and fresh ideas.

[00:00:34]
Ben Newsome: And it’s with that highly positive and collaborative attitude that Margaret Shepherd has really led the Science Teachers’ Association of New South Wales to seriously great heights. Today, it’s all about leadership and the science classroom.

[00:00:44]
Announcer: You’re listening to the Fizzics Ed Podcast. For hundreds of ideas, free experiments and more, go to fizzicseducation.com.au. And now, here’s your host, Ben Newsome.

[00:01:00]
Ben Newsome: Yes, welcome again to another Fizzics Ed Podcast. Yet again, we’ve got a big week because this time we speak with Margaret Shepherd, who amongst being the president for the Science Teachers’ Association of New South Wales, she also looks after 16 schools across South Western Sydney and is a lecturer at the Australian Catholic University for pre-service secondary science teachers. She brings a world of experience and a lot of knowledge into teaching science, but also has a whole bunch of collaborative and leadership skills which she shares with the teachers that she looks after.

[00:01:28]
Ben Newsome: During this chat, we dived into several ideas around offering students opportunities to explore their world in great detail. Plus, we looked at the value of encouraging kids to take risks as well as the importance of being involved in your local teachers’ association. We were also joined by Lucy Hawkings, who is a highly motivated science teacher from Clancy Catholic College, who describes just what it’s like to work in a collaborative school environment that supports teachers’ growth. So, there’s quite a lot to cover here, so let’s dive into the chat. Our guests have a lot to offer.

[00:01:53]
Announcer: This is the Fizzics Ed Podcast.

[00:01:56]
Margaret Shepherd: I have lots of hats. I am currently the president of the Science Teachers’ Association, and we call it STANSW because that’s much more convenient. So if you hear anyone say STANSW, you don’t have to say, “What was that?” You’ll know what it means now, so that’ll help you. STANSW is an association that is run by members for members. So in other words, it’s a whole bunch of teachers who volunteer their time and their expertise to help other teachers. So we run PD and we run lots of different events.

[00:02:27]
Margaret Shepherd: For the whole of New South Wales, anyone is welcome to join and we try and cater to every single school, so we are cross-sectoral and we are not specifically just for any one system. So hopefully anyone should feel comfortable to come along and join our association.

[00:02:47]
Ben Newsome: And actually, something that I’ve found out when I’ve gone to a number of your conferences—which are, by the way, incredibly fun, they are a lot of fun—what people don’t realise is that you’re actually there for primary teachers as well.

[00:02:58]
Margaret Shepherd: We are, we are! We’d love to have more primary teachers come along. We’ve got a CONASTA conference this year. CONASTA is our annual national conference and that will be running in July at Sydney University, and we have a whole programme specifically for primary teachers. Interestingly enough, we get lots of secondary teachers going to the primary strand as well as the secondary strand. So whatever’s running there, it’s of interest to both groups of teachers.

[00:03:28]
Ben Newsome: Oh look, this definitely came up. A number of people who have spoken on this podcast and beyond have just said, “Look, just get different experiences from different people. It really matters.”

[00:03:38]
Margaret Shepherd: Sometimes one of my favourite workshops are the lab tech workshops.

[00:03:41]
Ben Newsome: Oh, they’re unreal.

[00:03:42]
Margaret Shepherd: They’re unreal, and primary teachers would love them just as much because they could give them some ideas on how to prepare or get the equipment ready. And sometimes the equipment doesn’t have to be very expensive, $100 ornate, complicated science equipment; it can be bits of paper and string and plastic bottles.

[00:04:05]
Ben Newsome: Oh, literally. Straight after this, actually, Margaret’s going to hook me up. I’m actually presenting for the Australian Science Communicators literally in an hour’s time, and I went, “I just need a balloon and a cup and a skewer!” That’s it! You don’t need fancy stuff at all. And very much the lab techs are very much your friends. I mean, we’ve got a number of staff who are prac teachers, they’re about to go out as new scheme teachers as well, and I said, “Your first friend of point of call, apart from your head teacher, is your labby. Your labby is your friend.”

[00:04:32]
Margaret Shepherd: Oh, definitely. You know, I was just at a school this morning and we’re planning to teach the new Investigating Science unit next year. And we’ve decided to approach it from an Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander perspective. So one of our first activities is throwing boomerangs because we want the students to learn about the Bernoulli effect.

[00:04:51]
Margaret Shepherd: And the teacher said, “Well, maybe as part of the depth study, we could have them making paper planes.” So once they’ve learned the science of the Bernoulli effect, they can go and make paper planes and we can have a competition about that. So from a fairly ordinary syllabus point to something that’s going to be very engaging for the students.

[00:05:13]
Ben Newsome: Oh, that’s unreal. I mean, I love the Bernoulli effect because I love doing the toilet paper with the leaf blower, I must say.

[00:05:19]
Margaret Shepherd: Oh, can you explain that?

[00:05:20]
Ben Newsome: Yeah, absolutely! So get yourself a paint roller, get yourself some toilet paper, give it a bit of a squeeze—I must say, I get sick of the glue that’s on the toilet roll, it’s always in the way, so get rid of that—put your toilet roll onto your paint roller. And just put it just below the leaf blower and turn the thing on. It will go a good ten metres.

[00:05:40]
Margaret Shepherd: Oh wow.

[00:05:41]
Ben Newsome: It goes, and the idea is just showing pressure differential and off it goes. It’s brilliant and it grabs a big audience. And let’s be honest, who doesn’t like seeing toilet paper being thrown around the place?

[00:05:52]
Ben Newsome: And actually, that brings up the point, I mean, what are some of the fun, most awesome lessons and science things that you’ve seen over the years in doing this?

[00:05:59]
Margaret Shepherd: As a biologist, you know, I’ve seen the world of the microbe and looking at the cells inside living organisms. Or what’s even more interesting is non-living. We were looking for xylem tissue one year with one of the senior classes and we said, “I wonder what we could see if we did a specimen of a piece of matchstick. Let’s do a really thin slice of a matchstick.” And there, lo and behold, you could see this most exquisite xylem coil staring up at you. Wow, is the word. That’s exactly how I felt and so did the kids, because I jumped around in joy and carried on like a treat, as I do.

[00:06:48]
Margaret Shepherd: You know, and another one that really I find the most fascinating activity that I do with the kids is I get them when we’re doing something on plants: “Go over and stand next to the window and tell me what you see.” “Oh, miss, there’s trees out here.” “Oh, okay. Is that all you’ve got to say?” “Yes.” “Okay, fine. All right, have a sit down.” Then we teach the unit. At the end of the unit, I say, “I want you to go over to the window and tell me what you see.” And they just go, “Oh my goodness, I see so much now that I didn’t see before.”

[00:07:31]
Ben Newsome: Actually, you remind me, that reminds me of a presentation that happened at STANSW, gee, it must have been ten years ago—okay, I’m showing my age—but there was someone, I can’t remember if it was yourself or someone who was keynoting at that particular conference, right before we started. I’m sure it was a STANSW conference. That was, “I want to just show you a picture.” And it was just a photo of the backyard and there was a bit of morning glory or balloon vine or something growing around the place. And just note down what you can see. And initially people just said, “I see a vine.” That was the first thing. “Look closer.” And after a while, they started to see a nest, then they started to see the shadow differentiation, then they started to see the different colours in the vine as well and then explain that. You can get into a lot of detail if you stop and look.

[00:08:16]
Margaret Shepherd: I know. We have to teach our kids to do that. They don’t do that so much anymore.

[00:08:21]
Ben Newsome: What do you reckon is driving that? Just purely out of interest. I mean, they’re highly attentive when their face is in an iPad, I know, that says it all! But yeah, I mean, I’ve got young kids, under five and an eight-year-old, and I kind of wonder myself, because one of the things I love doing is getting them out into the garden and getting their hands dirty and looking at the lettuce. And why is the lettuce, right now the lettuce is bolting because we’ve had so much rain lately. And just the “why” questions and “stop and look, stop and look.” It seems like that requirement is needing to get older and older and older as the students go on.

[00:08:54]
Margaret Shepherd: Yeah, look, I think age and “who am I” gets in the way. Because when they start to wonder who they’re going to be as a teenager and they start becoming very aware of what other people are saying, prior to that, they’re happy to stick their hand up and ask why. And then all of a sudden, “Oh, someone might be judging me. They might be going, ‘That was a clever question’ or ‘That was a dumb question.'” You know, this sort of issue happens for them. And so they start to pull back a little bit into that reserved space. “I’ll just wait. I’ll just sit back and if I don’t rock the waves or say anything, I’ll just learn quietly.”

[00:09:31]
Ben Newsome: Actually, you know what? I’ve seen this happen very much. As an outreach presenter, I’m in a unique position—and as yourself, because I mean, you’re running around to what, 17 schools I believe is your own job? I mean, that’s enough with Sydney Catholic Schools, that’s flat out.

[00:09:44]
Margaret Shepherd: It’s the best job in the world, I say.

[00:09:46]
Ben Newsome: Oh, it’s good fun! But you get to get a snapshot of how people are reacting to a particular curriculum or syllabus and whatnot. And something I have seen, especially with highly gifted students in that Year 9-10 spot, you’ll come in there with maybe a programme on forensics or whatever it might be. And I’ve found that some of these kids just don’t want to say anything unless they’re not perfectly correct. And it’s almost like getting blood out of a stone. It’s like, “Dude, I know you know what you want to say. Just say it!”

[00:10:14]
Margaret Shepherd: Yes, they’re not very good risk-takers when people might judge them. And that’s one of our challenges as teachers, to encourage that. And sometimes in the junior classes, you know, Year 7, I always start talking about extravagant guesses. You know, I’ll ask a question that really I don’t expect them to know the answer to, but I want them to have a guess. You know stuff. You’re not a blank slate in your mind. So when I say this or show you this, what enters your mind? Say it! And by encouraging them to say all sorts of things, and nothing’s right and nothing’s wrong, it’s just putting ideas out, that hopefully then over the year encourages them that for me in my room, it’s okay to say whatever you want to say because it’s a safe environment.

[00:11:04]
Ben Newsome: This is one of the things that, and if you’ve not been exposed to this, this is very real—I’m not making stuff up here—this is very much the case in the startup sector, and something that happens in Silicon Valley and all that type of thing. Because what actually happens is there’s groups like IDEO and Y Combinator and all these things that get highly, you know, businesses that are on a serious trajectory. It’s to start thinking so widely that nothing can be wrong for this five minutes. In fact, there is no wrong answer. If your solution is that a clown has to do this on a unicycle, so be it! And what this means that usually happens is that people will give their first initial answers for a given question. First 20 are fairly boring and standard, what you would expect on a test paper. However, what gets interesting is once you run out of your initial things, then when you start peeling back some layers, you start to get creative. And of course they get outlandish, but then some people start grabbing the ideas that come up at answer number 70 and they mash it back to answer number 10, and now there’s an idea you never thought of. And the idea of either “fail quickly” or “fail fast” and go again, it works!

[00:12:11]
Margaret Shepherd: It works! There’s a group called NoTosh, and I think they’re based in the UK, and they taught me once about ideation. So what we do is we go into the classroom and we give the kids a topic or a problem, generally, it’s based around a problem of technology or something out there—say there’s asteroids going to hit Earth, what are you going to do about it?

[00:12:35]
Margaret Shepherd: And the kids have X amount of time, so it might be five minutes, and they’re in groups, great big butcher paper there. They have to write a hundred solutions! And anything can be silly, clever, doesn’t matter, no judgment, just write your idea on paper. And then we go from there and break up and say, “Okay, now each individual, what’s your favourite six on this page?” And eventually you come down to one, and that then leads you into developing a prototype to solve that solution.

[00:13:08]
Ben Newsome: Exactly! And what’s really cool is that when they then are forced to do a hundred implementation ideas as well, it gets crazy! But the thing is that I love ideation, it’s something we actually do at Fizzics with our own staff every now and then. And it’s fun! It is actually fun. And actually, this gets me thinking, bringing us sort of back to topic to a degree because I know you’d go down this tangent, but this STEM movement, this project-based learning thing, I know there’s all these different acronyms and bits and pieces. It just seems to me, just making ideas work, more or less. What’s your thought about all this going on?

[00:13:48]
Margaret Shepherd: Look, I understand where they’re coming from in linking and integrating science with maths, engineering, etc. I understand that concept of integration, but that’s not going to work if you don’t understand the science, or if you don’t understand the maths, or if you don’t understand the engineering strategies. So I’m all for integration, but not at the expense of taking time out of learning the core. Now, someone might say to me, “Well, learn it at the same time,” and I’d say, “That’s great if you have a teacher who is completely qualified with a science degree, an engineering degree, a maths degree, and a technology degree, who is completely upskilled in all of those areas and can integrate.”

[00:14:40]
Ben Newsome: So we need to create a degree called the “Swiss Army Knife”?

[00:14:42]
Margaret Shepherd: Something like that! Something like that. And you know, the other argument is, well, get trained people. Okay, well, yes, that’s an option. How do you train them to be that skilled in those four areas?

[00:14:58]
Margaret Shepherd: Like for science, you know, I’m very much the sort of person that believes that to teach science, to do a science degree is your first step and then education is your second step. And so really, isn’t that, you know, if you’re a maths teacher, you need to learn maths before you learn how to teach it? So that’s where I come from. And STANSW‘s perspective is pretty much along the same line. We’re not saying no to integration, but we’re saying, “Hang on, we need to upskill our students in the basic core skills for those subjects.”

[00:15:34]
Ben Newsome: And that’s certainly something you’re doing with the teachers all the time. And you were just describing before we went on air about the work you’ve been doing in regional New South Wales and right across Sydney. How do you—I often wonder when you speak with people like yourself—where do you find the time to sleep? And where do you get time to actually just have personal life? Because you are everywhere, you’re all over the place!

[00:15:53]
Margaret Shepherd: Oh, I know, I love it! Oh look, it gives me so much joy. I can’t explain clearly enough how pleasurable it is to work for the, I shouldn’t say work, to volunteer for the association. I get to meet the most amazing people and I get to talk about education. And if you said, “What’s my hobby?” I’d say teaching science. So given that, it just all fits in together. So yes, I do get some sleep, occasionally!

[00:16:26]
Ben Newsome: Yeah, but it is fun. It is very much so. I mean, even just today, I know you’re at Clancy Catholic College, but this morning you were at another school as well.

[00:16:34]
Margaret Shepherd: Yes, I was at Mary MacKillop at Wakeley. So this morning we were doing programming together. And what we do is we collaborate, so we work together to decide, using evidence-based practice, what’s the best way to teach the students that particular concept. All of us in our system are very strongly involved in using a 5E’s approach for pedagogy. So we’re always looking at how we can engage the students in the concept that we’re about to teach. We don’t just, “Okay, everyone, here’s a PowerPoint, here’s the content, off we go, now let’s do a prac,” because that’s not very interesting if a child is given the answer before they do it. Why would they bother doing it? So we’re very much into, well, let’s engage their interest in this topic, then let them play with and explore an investigation where they’re going to raise some questions of their own. Then they come to you and say, “Can you tell me why the plane stays up? Why did the boomerang stay up?” “Well, it’s funny you asked that, I’ll tell you the answer!”

[00:17:42]
Margaret Shepherd: Which is what science teachers love to do. We love to do that, but now the kids are asking first. And then we go on and do applications and elaborations, you know, something deeper. So that’s why I love collaborative planning because one mind is great, two or more is much better.

[00:18:01]
Ben Newsome: And you know what I love is that no matter how many minds you can have on a given set of problems, sometimes things just go wrong. And they do, the lesson goes completely left field and the experiment that you thought was going to be whatever it was, the reagents were ready and maybe they weren’t. Have you ever had the situation—I bet you have.

[00:18:18]
Margaret Shepherd: Oh no, everything’s always been perfect for me. I’ve never had any problems. I remember the time I nearly—this was in the days before risk assessment, I have to say, and I was a very new teacher. I’ll never forget it because it was horrendous. And in a book, I read this procedure to make a compound of iron filings and sulphur.

[00:18:41]
Ben Newsome: Oh, okay.

[00:18:42]
Margaret Shepherd: Oh, you just heat it up in a crucible. I went, “Great!” There was no such mention of do it in the fume cupboard. So I had all the kids around the bench doing this and of course, you know what happened, we got all this very nasty gas produced so I had to evacuate everyone outside so that they didn’t suffer from some sort of respiratory problem.

[00:19:04]
Margaret Shepherd: And I went, “Oh my goodness, I had not read deeply enough.” And this is one of the issues I think for new teachers. When you see something in a book or you see something on a website, if you don’t ask someone, “Have you done this? What are the issues with it?” Or luckily now we use RiskAssess, so it would tell you. Although it wouldn’t tell you unless you looked at the product that was being produced. You’ve really got to say, “Well, this is going to be made, what’s going to be the issue in that reaction?”

[00:19:37]
Margaret Shepherd: So that, it’s crucial for new young teachers to be able to network with more experienced teachers so that they learn all about those sorts of issues.

[00:19:48]
Ben Newsome: That’s exactly what you did yesterday, wasn’t it, with the—or to a degree—you had those early career teachers?

[00:19:54]
Margaret Shepherd: Thirty! We had 30 people yesterday. Our Early Careers Teachers Day.

[00:19:58]
Ben Newsome: So this group of teachers probably have graduated between one and five years ago?

[00:20:03]
Margaret Shepherd: Yes. And we come together this year and they love to share their experiences and they talk to each other about what worked and what didn’t work. And we touch base on the topics that they learned at uni and well, “Okay, where are you now in that learning journey? What do you think now to what you thought one year ago or four years ago or five years ago?”

[00:20:29]
Margaret Shepherd: So we run that course every second year because in the other year we do a leadership course. So someone who’s been teaching five to ten years might be looking to become accredited at Highly Accomplished or at Lead level. So they’d come along and meet like-minded people and discuss ways that they could improve their practice or show evidence of working at that level. And we have a part of that course involves peer review, so they shadow each other. So they go to each other’s schools and they get to see each other in practice. And that’s very powerful stuff.

[00:21:10]
Ben Newsome: I bet. And actually, what I’m really excited to is I know that we’ve got one of the teachers from Clancy Catholic College who at some point is about to finish up her lessons. I’m sure we’ll hear bells at this school—are there bells even?

[00:21:21]
Margaret Shepherd: Yes, there are.

[00:21:22]
Ben Newsome: Oh, there you go! So I know that they’re lined up to run on down and I know they’ll walk through the door at any moment. And in fact, what we’ll do is we may even take a short break. And when we come back, we might have one of the teachers here that very much can describe the sort of things that goes down at the coalface of this school. And it’ll be very interesting. So hold on, we’re about to come back.

[00:21:43]
Announcer: We hope you’ve been enjoying the Fizzics Ed Podcast. We love making science make sense. Why don’t you book us for a science show or workshop in your school? If you’re outside of Australia, you can connect with us via a virtual excursion. See our website for more.

[00:21:57]
Ben Newsome: Lucy, thanks for joining on.

[00:21:59]
Lucy Hawkings: Hi! It’s good to be here.

[00:22:00]
Ben Newsome: No worries! So, tell us a bit about what you’ve been doing at Clancy Catholic College.

[00:22:04]
Lucy Hawkings: So I’ve been a teacher here for two years now. It’s my third and a half year of teaching in general. And so I’ve been really loving it. I’ve started my first science Stage 6 class this year.

[00:22:16]
Ben Newsome: Oh wow, how was that?

[00:22:18]
Lucy Hawkings: Oh, challenging. Really challenging, but it was just fantastic. It was a really good experience to start collaborating.

[00:22:23]
Ben Newsome: Biology, chemistry?

[00:22:24]
Lucy Hawkings: Senior Science.

[00:22:25]
Margaret Shepherd: Senior Science, which is unfortunately going to be no longer as of next year.

[00:22:31]
Lucy Hawkings: So it’s good, finishing off with a bang. We’re going to miss that course, aren’t we?

[00:22:34]
Margaret Shepherd: We are.

[00:22:35]
Lucy Hawkings: Um, so I’m actually programming as well for the new course, the Investigating Science at the moment with Margaret.

[00:22:40]
Ben Newsome: Yeah, and that’s why we wanted to chat with you to hear what that’s actually like. I mean, knowing that, okay, you’ve been going for three years, you’re starting to find your feet and do stuff, and now you’ve got to totally change gears and redesign everything again.

[00:22:51]
Lucy Hawkings: Well, fortunately, it’s kind of been that the whole way through. There’s always with teaching something new that comes up, a new challenge that you want to take on. So you’re constantly developing, changing, adjusting, adding a new technology, a new programme. So this is just in another stride. But it’s been really good.

[00:23:09]
Ben Newsome: Well, we were just talking about some of our favourite experiments that we’ve got to do and Margaret was recounting this really great thing. I’m going to have to try this. That matchstick experiment.

[00:23:17]
Lucy Hawkings: Oh, yes! It was amazing.

[00:23:18]
Ben Newsome: That’s very cool. Just to bring you up to speed: literally very thin shavings of a matchstick and finding the xylem. And those people who don’t know what xylem is, think like tubes that move water from the roots up to the plant, up to the leaves, in case you were wondering. So out of interest, what are some of the experiments that just clearly the kids just went, “Love it! Don’t want to stop!”?

[00:23:40]
Lucy Hawkings: Um, with my seniors this year, we’ve had a lot of experiments that I haven’t done before, so I’ve really enjoyed it. A lot of around Mother’s Day again, sticking with the xylem, we transported the dye up through the stems and so we had colourful plants for all of our mothers. They loved that! And now they’re really critical. Now every time they go to a florist, they’re like, “Oh miss, I saw big bright blue plants!” I was like, “Yeah, good, you’re really onto it.”

[00:24:06]
Lucy Hawkings: Burning Banksia pods was another really cool one. So we looked at different pre-germination techniques, and so we lit one on fire and that’s always fantastic for the kids and teachers alike.

[00:24:18]
Margaret Shepherd: Teachers too!

[00:24:20]
Ben Newsome: Actually snap, crackle, pop.

[00:24:22]
Lucy Hawkings: Yes, it definitely does. No, really, really cool. There’s been some fantastic ones lately.

[00:24:28]
Ben Newsome: So I mean, what’s it been like? I mean, obviously this is your first school out of uni, yeah?

[00:24:32]
Lucy Hawkings: Second.

[00:24:34]
Ben Newsome: Second! Oh wow.

[00:24:36]
Lucy Hawkings: I’m actually PE trained as well.

[00:24:49]
Ben Newsome: How is that? Like obviously moving from health and PDHPE for those people in New South Wales—it’s a very good programme—and then you sort of then move into the science classroom. What was that like, walking into where the Bunsen burners and everything else were?

[00:25:23]
Lucy Hawkings: Well, with PE, there are a lot of risks as well being out on the playground. So I was able to transfer a lot of my skills in risk management and behaviour management as well, both being quite practical subjects. It was really good to have that link there. But yeah, Bunsen burners, gas taps, was all very exciting to get involved with. My favourite thing was being able to lead all the teacher demos. Which as a kid, you sit there in class and you’re like, “Oh, that’s really cool, I want to do it!” Now, “Oh, this is awesome, gather round!”

[00:25:50]
Ben Newsome: So what’s your favourite one? I mean, if you had to just say—and I’ll throw this to you Margaret as well—if you had like something this afternoon where you’ve got all the kids who really are into science and they just want to go away, and you had to just run an experiment which is, you know, the kids are going to love, it seems to work every time, what would you do? It doesn’t have to be fancy materials. It really doesn’t have to be. Just any random thing. What would you go, “I’m going to go raid the cupboards and I’m going to go get this thing.”

[00:26:17]
Ben Newsome: I know off the top of my head right now, I’m thinking, frankly, it’s the afternoon so I’m thinking something to eat. So maybe making some sherbet for me right now would be all right. If those people haven’t done sherbet before, I probably make you get some bicarbonate soda, bit of citric acid, some icing mixture—those people overseas in America, that’s powdered sugar, yeah—get the kids to work out the right ratios and see which one tastes great and which one tastes like soap. But what would you do?

[00:26:32]
Margaret Shepherd: Oh, I don’t think you can beat growing crystals. I like that because that’s really quite easy to set up and the students have to really work hard to trial different ways of getting a bigger crystal. And a beautiful crystal!

[00:26:34]
Ben Newsome: Which crystal would you grow? There’s lots you can do.

[00:26:48]
Margaret Shepherd: Yeah, we just do alum. Alum is a fairly standard one. I know copper sulphate is beautiful and pretty, but I tend to avoid it and go for that alum instead. So that’s okay. But yeah, crystal growing is fun.

[00:27:14]
Lucy Hawkings: I’m a little bit backyard science. I like: here’s a bunch of random equipment, I want you to create something that’s going to be able to travel the most distance. Let’s have a race! I did it recently with my Year 8s and it was really good to see some of the students that aren’t as academic, that aren’t at your front of the class answering the questions, just excel with their problem-solving and their hands-on ability.

[00:27:34]
Lucy Hawkings: I had a student who just blew the class out of the water. I gave him straws and bottle caps and bits of cardboard and random things from leftover in the prep room. I said, “Righto, we’re looking at forces, let’s create something that’s going to push a force and we’re going to move a distance.” And his device travelled for 30 metres.

[00:27:57]
Ben Newsome: I love those ones! They’re awesome. Two came to mind. I know that one which worked really well: we got a whole bunch of Lego at work and there’s a heaps of gears of different sizes. We just dump it all on the floor and go, “Guys, you’ve got five minutes to grab whatever you can. After five minutes, we’re saying stop.” And then we give them a challenge, whether it’s a tractor pull or whatever. Other ones are the—it used to be called egg drop challenge, but now with kids with allergies, you do the water balloon challenge instead. But that’s just fun!

[00:28:10]
Lucy Hawkings: So good! Yeah, we do a few off our two-level buildings—shame we don’t have higher! But it’s really fun to see them; they all get really nervous just before they drop it.

[00:28:21]
Ben Newsome: I actually warned a high school class once that because they were so good at it, that actually next time I’ll actually weigh the materials. I want a definitive answer of who actually won!

[00:28:27]
Lucy Hawkings: Yeah, start getting really picky about, “I want to be able to see the egg from the outside of the container!”

[00:28:34]
Ben Newsome: Oh gosh. So I guess just out of interest, I mean, what would be some advice that you give to people who are just starting off in their science teaching career?

[00:29:36]
Lucy Hawkings: Um, my advice would be to embrace the expertise of other people. There’s nothing better than collaboration to assist you in building your own professional development. Having a chat to someone because, like I said, I swapped KLAs, I came new to science and it was fantastic, but there was a lot that I didn’t know. There were a lot of gaps in my knowledge and I was working with people that were just so experienced and so open to discussions.

[00:30:03]
Lucy Hawkings: I would go into their classes all the time, just, “Oh, can I see you run this prac? I tried it with my class, I wasn’t happy with it. Can I come in and have a look?” Or, “I’m planning on running this, I’ve got this idea, have you done it before?” Because there’s no point in reinventing the wheel. I’ve got all these fantastic ideas that I think no one could have possibly thought before, but we’ve got such an experienced, diverse team here that there’s so many people that say, “Oh, at this school I did it, it was fantastic, let me find that for you,” and then you can alter their resources and build upon. It’s really good. That would be my suggestion.

[00:30:16]
Ben Newsome: I’d happily venture that reciprocally you would bring other stuff to the classroom as well, having done a lot of understanding in exercise movement studies, human movement, physiology. And like you said, the risk assessments. I know full well that one of the most difficult places to have kids not hurt themselves is the sports oval. Like Bunsen burners are with a bunch of cricket bats! The science classroom is actually one of the safest places in the building, beyond English perhaps, but yeah, very much so.

[00:31:07]
Ben Newsome: And actually, that means flipping it the other way: Margaret, advice I guess for people who are leading others? I mean, getting people together, you’ve been doing this for many years. I guess the advice is, what have you learned out of your time doing this?

[00:31:18]
Margaret Shepherd: Oh, that’s a good question. I think building a relationship with people is the most important, and having that trusting and open relationship where I can say, “Yeah, I don’t know.” And not feel that anyone is saying, “Well, you should know.” Well, no, I don’t. I don’t know everything, and it’s okay, let’s work it out together.

[00:32:00]
Margaret Shepherd: So bringing the skills that a leader has or a more experienced person has to the table is as equally important as new people coming in and bringing in their new and fresh ideas. So we really need a clean table to start with and everyone puts on the table what they can add and we build from there, rather than having a top-down—it’s not leadership when it’s top-down and you’re being told what to do.

[00:32:15]
Margaret Shepherd: I mean, if Lucy came in here and she was told “Do this, do that, do something else,” she wouldn’t be the fine teacher that she is today. So all credit to her team here that they’ve been wonderful working together.

[00:32:29]
Lucy Hawkings: And that’s always really modelled from the top. Like Grace, our coordinator, is just so open to advice and encouragement. I’m saying, “Oh, I’ve created this!” She’s, “Oh fantastic, thank you so much, that’s amazing!” Anything new we find, she embraces. And she’s the first person to say, you know, “Oh, I don’t know as much about biology.” Not her strength area, she’s a physics teacher, so she’ll come and ask questions all the time. And it’s really good just to see that modelled because then it’s something that younger teachers take on. And it’s also something that like I’ve got a prac teacher now, and I’m trying to model that as well with all of my failures! But also to the kids, to be able to say, “I don’t know everything, let’s figure this out,” because it trickles down.

[00:32:38]
Ben Newsome: I totally agree. In fact, someone once told me—I wish I could remember who it was, but I do remember them actually saying—”No matter what, leave your ego at the door.” And it does matter. It totally matters. Just be real and normal.

[00:32:51]
Margaret Shepherd: Yes! And kind to each other. We are all under the pump all the time, you know. No one’s sitting around twiddling their thumbs from early morning till late at night. So if we start being critical and judgmental of each other, well, where does that take anyone?

[00:33:04]
Ben Newsome: Yeah, and then sadly you see that happen sometimes across various Twitter chats around education. Every now and then someone gets a bee in their bonnet and off it goes!

[00:33:34]
Margaret Shepherd: Yeah, that’s okay, you see it happen and it’s a real shame because sometimes it’d be a great education chat that I thought, “Oh, I’d love to just be involved,” and then, “No, now I don’t. Not going to add my opinion on that one.” Shut down.

[00:33:47]
Ben Newsome: Yeah, that’s it and that’s exactly it. And that’s exactly something we were talking about before when we were talking about the hundred ideas earlier before you got to come into the room. It’s just: ideation is very much just throwing ideas around until something sticks.

[00:33:52]
Margaret Shepherd: That’s what we do! And I’m just going to add to that: that’s where STANSW is trying to provide venues for people who feel a bit isolated or maybe they don’t have a network that they feel that they can work with in their own school for whatever reason—they’re the only teacher there, for example. You know, come along to the STANSW events and meet other people who are as engaged and interested and experienced and learn through that opportunity.

[00:33:53]
Ben Newsome: And I’m going to throw down that 100% the people who are listening to a podcast like this are the motivated types in the first place! So with that in mind and a perfect segue, how would they get in touch with STANSW?

[00:34:28]
Margaret Shepherd: Okay, we have a website. It’s stansw.asn.au.

[00:34:54]
Ben Newsome: So S-T-A-N-S-W?

[00:35:16]
Margaret Shepherd: Yes. Yes. You can go to that website and see all of the events that we’ve got to offer. We’ve got a whole range of conferences organised for next year already. And we’ll be focusing on Year 12, the new Year 12 syllabuses, as well as touching on some Year 11 as well for people who missed this year. So that would be a good place to start, and that will have information about becoming a member or how to become a member. Registration is open now. We close registration I think at the end of March next year.

[00:35:17]
Margaret Shepherd: That’s so that everybody can get all of the resources because we provide four journals a year and four newsletters and four e-news. So we need to have that sort of tied off earlier in the year. But come along, it’s tax-deductible, it’s not very expensive really in the big scheme of things. And you can always have a school faculty membership if you didn’t want to become an individual member. So that way someone at the school gets all the information about what’s going on, they can pass it round.

[00:35:19]
Ben Newsome: No worries. And we’ll throw that as usual in the show notes as well. So if you didn’t pick that up, or if you’re walking the dog or driving in the car, you’ll have that bit somewhere around to pick that up. But look, thank you very much Margaret and Lucy for popping in, having a bit of a chat. And thanks again also to Clancy Catholic College for having me in this room to finally track Margaret down. Much appreciated, we’ll catch you another time.

[00:35:36]
Margaret Shepherd: Thanks Ben.

[00:35:56]
Lucy Hawkings: Thank you so much.

[00:36:18]
Announcer: This is the Fizzics Ed Podcast. We’re all about science, ed tech and more. To see 100 fun free experiments you can do with your class, go to fizzicseducation.com.au. That’s physics spelled F I Z Z I C S and click 100 free experiments.

[00:36:40]
Ben Newsome: And there you go, we were listening to Margaret Shepherd from the Science Teachers’ Association of New South Wales as well as Lucy Hawkings from Clancy Catholic College. Two highly motivated educators. You can really tell, and how cool would it be to be one of their students? I tell you what, I mean, makes you want to go back, doesn’t it? In some ways. But hey, I definitely got a lot out of that conversation and I hope you did too.

[00:37:02]
Ben Newsome: Number one for me was definitely get kids to really understand to be open to risks. To try and teach them that, you know what, it’s okay to occasionally fail and definitely model it. Definitely model that. Show, hey, we’re going to just try this stuff out and we’re going to see what happens. And that very much helps kids understand that that’s actually what the real world’s like. So definitely teach kids to be open to risk.

[00:37:24]
Ben Newsome: Number two for me was it can be the little things that matter. Margaret recounted this great experiment using matchsticks and microscopes. What a brilliant way to show xylem. And I must say, I’m going to have to go try this out because I really want to go check this out myself. So there you go, I challenge you. Go look at the little things. Use some microscopes, use some magnifiers. Go check that thing out.

[00:37:48]
Ben Newsome: And number three, and this is something Lucy definitely was about: share with your teachers that, you know what, you’re not quite sure how to do a particular experiment or even say, look, I totally stuffed up, probably don’t do this experiment this way. It means that you’ve created a collegiate atmosphere and it’s from there that, well, people will help you and you can help them and you have a much better workplace, and the kids benefit as a result.

[00:38:19]
Announcer: This is the Fizzics Ed Podcast. We’re excited about science. Grab a copy of our new book, Be Amazing: How to Teach Science the Way Primary Kids Love from our website. Just search Be Amazing Book. It’s available in hard copy and ebook. Go to fizzicseducation.com.au. That’s physics spelled F I Z Z I C S.

[00:38:37]
Ben Newsome: When it comes down to it, you can definitely be getting your students into science in so many different ways. And if you’re in primary school, if you’re an elementary teacher, you can be getting your kids to judge content being produced by scientists. What do I mean by that? Check out the Flame Challenge. Check out Alan Alda’s Flame Challenge, which is all about answering a question really, really well and having 11-year-olds grade it. It’s really, really interesting. And only last week we got to speak with well, one of the winners.

[00:38:54]
Ben Newsome: So thinking about what they enjoy and how they think and what they really respond to as well, I think that’s really important. I spoke to Joanna Haus, who had this brilliant answer for “What is energy?”, which was last year’s question for the Alan Alda Flame Challenge. Now, this year’s question is “What is climate?”. So why not get involved? If you’re a science communicator, perhaps throw your hat in the ring and say what is climate on the Flame Challenge. So go check out the Flame Challenge‘s website. And if you’re a class, if you have 11-year-olds, perhaps your kids could be the judge.

[00:39:00]
Announcer: Thanks for listening to the Fizzics Ed Podcast. Sign up now for our fortnightly email newsletter. It’s loaded with details on new experiments you can do, STEM teaching articles, new gadgets, exclusive offers and upcoming events. Go to fizzicseducation.com.au. Scroll to the bottom and add your email.

[00:39:15]
Ben Newsome: And that brings us to the end of yet another Fizzics Ed Podcast. But there’s still more to come. We are going to do a slight change in format because as we go over the summer, it’s time to, well, do something a little bit different. But until then, you’ve been listening to me, Ben Newsome for Fizzics Education, and you’ve been listening to the Fizzics Ed Podcast. I’ll catch you next week.

[00:39:20]
Announcer: You’ve been listening to another Fizzics Ed Podcast. We’re excited about science. Subscribe to us on iTunes to download the next episode as soon as it’s released. And don’t forget, for hundreds of ideas, free experiments, our new Be Amazing book and more, go to fizzicseducation.com.au. That’s physics spelled F I Z Z I C S.

Frequently Asked Questions

What is STANSW and who is eligible to join?
STANSW stands for the Science Teachers’ Association of New South Wales. It is a member-run professional organisation that provides support, professional development, and networking opportunities for science educators. It is cross-sectoral, meaning teachers from government, independent, and Catholic schools are all welcome. Notably, while often associated with secondary education, the association has a strong focus on supporting primary school teachers as well.

How can teachers encourage students to take risks in the science classroom?
Margaret Shepherd suggests using the concept of “extravagant guesses.” By asking questions where students aren’t necessarily expected to know the answer and rewarding any attempt to share an idea, teachers can create a “safe space.” This reduces the fear of being judged for being “wrong,” which is a common barrier for students in Years 9 and 10.

What is the “ideation” technique mentioned in the interview?
Ideation involves a rapid-fire brainstorming session where students are presented with a problem and tasked with writing down 100 solutions within a very short timeframe (e.g., five minutes). The goal is to move past standard, “boring” answers and reach more creative, outlandish, or innovative solutions by removing the fear of immediate judgment.

What is the STANSW perspective on STEM integration?
While STANSW supports the integration of science, technology, engineering, and mathematics, Margaret Shepherd emphasises that this should not occur at the expense of core disciplinary knowledge. The association believes students need to be upskilled in the basic core skills of each subject first to ensure that integration is meaningful rather than superficial.

How can new science teachers benefit from professional networks and associations?
Professional associations provide new teachers with a community where they can “shadow” experienced colleagues, access peer reviews, and participate in Early Career Teacher days. These networks are vital for sharing resources, discussing what worked or failed in a lesson, and learning practical risk management—ensuring new teachers don’t have to “reinvent the wheel.”

Extra thought ideas to consider

The Power of the Scientific Lens
Margaret Shepherd describes a simple exercise where students look out a window before and after a biology unit. Initially, they see “trees,” but later, they see complex biological systems. Consider how your teaching can move beyond delivering content to providing a permanent “lens” through which students observe and interpret their everyday environment.

Vulnerability as a Pedagogical Tool
The guests discuss the importance of teachers and leaders admitting when they “don’t know everything.” Reflect on the impact of modelling “learning in real-time” for your students. By showing your own investigative process and acknowledging your failures (such as a botched experiment), you create a collegiate atmosphere that encourages students to be honest about their own learning gaps.

Low-Cost Innovation
The interview highlights that profound scientific discoveries, such as seeing xylem coils in a matchstick, do not always require expensive, high-tech equipment. In an era of high-budget educational kits, how can we refocus on “backyard science” and simple, tactile investigations to ensure science remains accessible and engaging for all students, regardless of school funding?