Audio Transcript

Published: November 30, 2017
APA 7 Citation: Newsome, B. (Host). (2017, November 30). Ep.30 Flame Challenge [Audio podcast transcript]. Fizzics Education.
https://www.fizzicseducation.com.au/podcast/fizzicsed/flame-challenge/

Ben Newsome CF is the recipient of the 2023 UTS Chancellor’s Award for Excellence and a Churchill Fellow. He is a global leader in science communication and the founder of Fizzics Education.

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Johanna Howes: So, thinking about what they enjoy and how they think and what they really respond to as well, I think that’s really important.

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Ben Newsome: And it was that simple framework that got Johanna Howes to put together a brilliant visual submission for the Flame Challenge. What’s it all about? Well, you’re about to find out.

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Announcer: You’re listening to the Fizzics Ed Podcast. For hundreds of ideas, free experiments and more, go to fizzicseducation.com.au. And now, here’s your host, Ben Newsome.

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Ben Newsome: Yes, welcome again to another Fizzics Ed Podcast. I’m so excited because this week is a special week in science communication because the Flame Challenge question gets announced. If you’ve never heard of the Flame Challenge, go and type it into Google, you will find the Alda Centre. And it’s from there that Alan Alda and the team at Stony Brook University have been posing a question once a year that scientists right around the world have to answer. And guess what? We get to speak with Johanna Howes, who won the visual submission for the year about “What is Energy?”. She’s got a lot to share about how to communicate a message in a simple form that 11-year-olds would genuinely rate as an awesome answer. So very much excited about this week, let’s dive right into this interview; Jo’s got a lot to share.

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Announcer: This is the Fizzics Ed Podcast.

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Ben Newsome: Jo, welcome to the Fizzics Ed Podcast.

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Johanna Howes: Hi, thank you very much for having me.

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Ben Newsome: Absolutely. And very excited and I must say I’m a little stoked that you want to come on board on this because you’ve been doing a lot of science communication for many, many years. But you know what, how about we flip it this way. Jo, what do you do?

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Johanna Howes: What do I do? Oh, that is a… how much time do you have? Fair enough! I am currently doing a lot of different things. So I am a science communicator, like you said. I’m a freelance science writer, so I write for a couple of YouTube channels like SciShow and Veritasium on YouTube, which is pretty fun. I also make my own YouTube content. I’m a teacher at the University of Wollongong. What else? I think that’s it at the moment.

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Ben Newsome: So you’re one of these crazy people that do lots of stuff.

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Johanna Howes: Yeah, lots of little things. It’s a little bit hard to wrap my head around it sometimes.

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Ben Newsome: Even just making sure you are, lots of bits and pieces. And I know a lot of people listening into this would love to even just know all these different channels and things you do. So let’s just concentrate on one thing at a time here. Righto, so you’ve been writing programmes for Veritasium and SciShow. That’s really cool. What’s that like?

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Johanna Howes: Yeah, it’s pretty fun. I started doing it at the beginning of this year. And yeah, it’s been a really interesting experience. So basically the one that I write for the most is SciShow. Yeah, I’m definitely a freelancer. I should probably point out that… anyway, that’s alright. So basically what happens there is I pitch ideas for them. They can be weird and wonderful things, like I did one on xenophyophores. They’re these massive single-celled organisms, they’re about 15, 20 centimetres in diameter and they’re one cell, which is insane.

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Ben Newsome: That’s weird.

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Johanna Howes: Yeah, it is, right? It’s pretty cool. So I wrote an episode about that. I’ve also written episodes about environmental disasters for them, so there’s one about the Minamata mercury poisoning episode. What else did I write about? Oh yeah, lots of episodes about farts for some reason. I’ve become the resident fart expert. I don’t understand how that happened, they just gave me all of the things to write about there. Yeah, so it’s been really fun. And it’s been great for me as well to develop my skills as a writer. Because the amazing editing staff at SciShow are just super helpful. And they really help you with your writing style and how to tailor it for specific audiences. I’ve learnt an awful lot.

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Ben Newsome: And highly varied by the sound of it.

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Johanna Howes: Yeah, it has been. Which is what I love. I mean, I think I’m one of these people that gets bored after a while, which is potentially not a good trait to have, but that’s okay. So being able to write about different things has been excellent. It’s been really fun.

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Ben Newsome: That’s really fun. And you’re also getting to teach undergraduate students, and I believe they’re primary teachers?

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Johanna Howes: Yes, so I kind of do two different subjects. I teach the undergraduate chemistry students, and I also teach the undergraduate primary school teachers how to teach science. There’s a science content subject that I got brought on to do the tutorials for, which was really fun. We got to play with a whole bunch of things in the classes. It was really cool.

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Ben Newsome: So one of the things I often ask people when they jump on this, and I’m genuinely really curious about this, is the history, the background. Why science? Why not something else? What is it that grabs you about this?

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Johanna Howes: I think curiosity, really. I’m one of these people that just loves learning about how things work. I feel like that sounds really cliché, but…

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Ben Newsome: Clichés are there for a reason!

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Johanna Howes: Yeah, so I feel like I’ve always been super curious about why things happen and how things happen as well. I think I spent a lot of time as a kid going to things like the Science Centre here in Wollongong, learning about a whole bunch of stuff. I remember actually, when I was a kid going to the Science Centre in Wollongong and watching a liquid nitrogen show. And seeing them freeze a whole bunch of different things and smash things with hammers that shouldn’t be able to be smashed with hammers. Like crushing lettuce into powder and I was just like, yeah, that’s what I want to do. I want to be a scientist. ‘Cause they seem to be able to do really fun things.

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Ben Newsome: And roll that forward, you then involved in genuine PhD projects around chemistry. This is just unreal. And I believe that was around chemistry and coral?

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Johanna Howes: Yes, that’s right. So I have a PhD in environmental chemistry, environmental biochemistry. I don’t know, it sits in a weird spot, I think. It’s a little hard to define. But yeah, so I got to look at the chemistry of corals and investigate a little bit about what they’re doing and why they might not be coping with increases in temperature very well. So yeah, that was super interesting, really cool.

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Ben Newsome: Absolutely. So actually we’ve got an episode coming up on this podcast with Craig from Reef HQ up in Townsville. And they do some very cool stuff and very much part of the Great Barrier Reef Marine Park. They’re really the epicentre and almost the thermometer of climate change.

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Johanna Howes: Yeah, they really are. I think it’s one of those really interesting visible examples at the moment of why getting into the reasons behind climate change and figuring out a way to stop it is really important. I think most Australians look at what’s going on on the reef and go, oh yeah, there’s a problem. Because it’s such an iconic thing for us. I feel like it’s one of those things that you can talk about and people really understand why it’s important as well.

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Ben Newsome: Now it’s absolutely unreal. And with your career path, you’ve done a lot of stuff. You then did a left turn and you go over to ANU to do a bit of science circus as well!

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Johanna Howes: Yeah, yeah. I feel like I’m one of these people that doesn’t really know what they’re going to do, tries their hand at a lot of stuff. I definitely know that science is the thing that I enjoy. But I feel like when I was doing my research project, I realised that doing the research itself wasn’t what made me excited and happy and it wasn’t what really got me to turn up every day. It was more explaining that to people and teaching people about different things in science and teaching those classes at the university as well. And that was what really got me and that was what I figured out I was really good at and what I loved to do rather than the research side of things. So yeah, I decided instead of focusing on research, maybe what I could do is focus on communication.

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Johanna Howes: Yeah, which I think was a bit of a scary career change. ‘Cause you spend a lot of time learning how to do something and then you go, actually, I don’t want to do that anymore, I’m going to try something else. That’s a little terrifying.

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Ben Newsome: So what was it like being on that roadshow? Because it’s intense. It’s a fun one.

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Johanna Howes: Yeah, it is. It’s an insane year. So I went to do a thing called a Masters of Science Communication in Outreach. So basically what that means is you spend a year travelling around Australia with a thing called the Shell Questacon Science Circus. So it’s a three-way partnership between the Australian National University, Questacon, and Shell. So we pack up a massive truck full of a whole bunch of fun hands-on experiments and exhibits and things to do, and then we get into cars. You’d be surprised at the number of people that think we travel around in the truck. We don’t, it’s a bit full.

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Johanna Howes: And then you get into cars and you travel all around Australia and you do school incursions, so we went in and did science shows for kids. We also took over things like town halls in rural and regional areas and set up basically a travelling Questacon, a science centre, which was so much fun. And so people came in and got to have a play with a bunch of different things and we did shows there as well. Yeah, we got to go into the depths of the outback as well to a whole bunch of indigenous communities and do workshops with them, which was an incredible experience.

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Johanna Howes: Yeah, it’s just really fun. And then you get to, like when we’re not touring, we learn how to communicate science as well, which involves things like learning how to speak to different audiences, how to change your language depending on those audiences as well. Yeah, the difference between science jargon and plain English. A whole bunch of different things. It was an incredible experience, but it’s also a really intense experience as well because you’re doing a master’s degree in nine months and you also spend about four of those months on the road with 15 other scientists from around Australia, sometimes around the world as well. And yeah, it’s just so much fun. It’s quite hard, but it’s really fun and it was probably one of the best years of my life actually.

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Ben Newsome: And learning how to communicate science is obviously central to what you do and that was well as like, wow, because you picked up something else earlier this year. And let’s get into this, let’s find out a little bit more.

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Johanna Howes: Yeah, so you’re talking about the Flame Challenge, I’m assuming.

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Ben Newsome: I certainly am. Now just for those who are completely unaware of this Flame Challenge, this was launched in 2012. This was a challenge that was thrown out there based on Alan Alda’s own question, like “What is a flame?”. And I feel rather than me talking about it, I believe that someone like yourself might want to, considering what you did. So let’s talk more.

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Johanna Howes: Yeah, yeah. I feel like as well, if you have a chance, you should go and look up Alan Alda talking about it because he’s such a pro at communicating and talking about this kind of stuff. But basically the story that he tells is how he as a fifth grader, year five, so about 11 years old, went to his teacher and asked, “What is a flame? How does it work?” And apparently his teacher looked at him and said, “Oxidation.” And so he says with a lot more comedic timing than I do, “So then I had two questions: what is a flame and what is oxidation?”

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Johanna Howes: So he decided… I don’t know that a lot of people know this, but also if you don’t know who Alan Alda is, he’s Hawkeye on M*A*S*H. So he’s been around for a very long time, he’s 82 I think this year. So he presented a show in America called Scientific American Frontiers for a very long time, which was sort of like Catalyst I think. So he got to talk to scientists and interact with them an awful lot and discovered that as a group we’re not super great at communicating. Yeah, and you get into a field like that and you end up talking to a whole bunch of people, and you just get used to talking to people who understand what you’re talking about and what you do. So he started a foundation or a centre which is basically all about teaching scientists how to communicate and how to think about your audience and how to change your language and change how you talk about your science so that people with no scientific background can understand it. So that’s where he’s coming from.

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Johanna Howes: And so he, based on this question that he remembered asking his teacher when he was a kid, also recognised that there was another big gap there, that scientists don’t often communicate with kids. I think a lot of us feel like sometimes when we’re doing science communication, we’re talking to adults a lot. But the idea behind the competition is kids ask a question and then scientists are encouraged to answer that for the kids. So there’s two categories, there’s a written category, so you write your answer, and then there’s a visual category. So I entered the visual category this year and I won! Which was pretty cool.

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Ben Newsome: So what we’re hearing right now is a virtual clap right around the world!

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Johanna Howes: Yay! It was very exciting. Yeah.

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Ben Newsome: And it’s very cool. I mean, to be able to create that medium. And you got hundreds, if not thousands of different entries and things coming in from all over the globe to answer this one single question. And what I love about it is how it’s flipped. Because it ain’t the adults who do the judging.

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Johanna Howes: No, it is not. And that was what I… I was saying that answer to the last question and I was like, oh wait, I should tell you the really cool thing about this competition. And I think the thing that makes me super happy about this competition is that it’s the kids that judge it. So they sit down in their classrooms, you can sign up your classroom to get a whole bunch of these entries. And the kids sit down and they talk about why they think this one explains it well, why they like it, what it tells them about energy or whatever the question is, for me it was what is energy. And then they get to judge it and they get to pick the winner. Which I think is incredible because it gives them such ownership over the competition and makes them feel a lot more confident about science, I think. Yeah, I love it a lot. It’s really cool.

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Ben Newsome: And the thing is that these type of questions come up in classrooms every single day, every hour of the day in every single classroom around the world. It very much happens and so a simple question like what is energy has very few words and yet it’s got such a deep answer when you peel back the layers. You only had a couple of minutes to pitch your idea, and especially in the visual medium. How’d you go about that?

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Johanna Howes: So we had a, I think it’s five minutes. That’s the limit. It was either three or five, I can’t remember. I think mine goes slightly over three, so it must have been five minutes. Anyway. Yeah, so I think having training in science communication helped me out quite a bit. So one of the things that I remembered when we were developing our shows for the science circus, was to think of things that you want to tell your audience. So they’re called Key Communication Messages or KCMs. So I basically just went through and thought about what I wanted to communicate and what sort of things I wanted to get across. And then I chopped those in half and focused on three, I think in the end.

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Johanna Howes: Yeah, and I wanted to tell a story as well. Because I think when you’re explaining something like this, you want to have something that people can relate to and can look at in their everyday life and go, oh I see that, that’s a thing, that’s something that I’ve seen and I can relate to. So I tried to do that as well. So basically I just wanted to go through… like I said, the question was what is energy. So I looked at what is energy, and I remember looking up the definition. And you know how sometimes when you’re told these things in school, and it’s like this is the definition of energy, it’s the ability to do work. And you’re like, cool, great, what does that mean? And it just raises a whole bunch more questions.

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Johanna Howes: So I think I decided based on that, rather than looking at what energy is, I was going to look at what energy does. Because I think for a visual medium that’s a lot easier to communicate anyway. And I think it’s quite an abstract thing as well trying to explain something like that. So having something that you can apply it to is super helpful. So I started with what energy does, and then went through the different types of energy and then looked at how objects can have different types of energy as well. So like I think in the video I used the example of I light a match, and that has light energy and heat energy. And then I go through how energy is neither created nor destroyed, and how it moves through a system as well. So yeah, it was pretty fun. And it was a really interesting experience to try and figure out how to do that and how to make it something that they could see and that they could relate to. So yeah.

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Ben Newsome: And you clearly did it very well. And what I love about it is that you embedded a story into it. I mean that is so critically important when you have only got a couple of minutes. It’s not just the facts, it’s the emotion that goes with it. And so I was thinking it’s a parallel, I was lucky enough to be invited to be a judge at the University of New South Wales three-minute thesis competition.

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Johanna Howes: Oh yeah!

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Ben Newsome: And that is awesome because you’ve got PhD scientists doing some awesome stuff in a variety of areas. But trying to get a simplified message out, literally compress years of understanding into three minutes is quite an undertaking.

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Johanna Howes: Oh yeah. That was actually my first real experience of science communication doing the three-minute thesis when I was doing my PhD. I don’t think I placed anywhere, but that’s alright, it’s a huge challenge, hey. And I just remember thinking about how to communicate something like that. You’ve really got to put it into plain English. And I think one of the easiest ways to do that is to tell a story. You know?

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Ben Newsome: Yeah, absolutely. I absolutely. It was thinking of going, yeah, that’s pretty much it. Pretty much, yeah. It is. And then obviously then it just comes down to what people perceive as the best story, I suppose, or the most eloquent way of describing a particular situation. But I mean, what I did like, that “what is energy” question is deep. I mean it’s heat, sound, light, chemistry. It’s all this stuff. And the idea of kids getting to understand how energy can transfer from one type to another turns up in late primary school as a genuine question. And so it’s extremely well-targeted and a lot of fun. So having won this, what did you get to do?

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Johanna Howes: So I got to go to New York! Yeah, which was kind of insane. It was funny, I was sitting there having lunch with the Flame Challenge crew, so the people that organise it from Stony Brook University on Long Island. They were talking to me about one of the other finalists who was from Beijing, and they were like, we were trying to work out contingency plans if the two international finalists won. Because I can’t imagine how much they spent to get me over there. But yeah, it was awesome, it was very cool. So yeah, I got to go over there and I got to meet Alan Alda, and he presented the award and we got to chat for a bit and yeah, we went out for had a drinks thing afterwards as well and it was just awesome, it was very, very cool.

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Ben Newsome: And a very exclusive alumni considering that this has only been going since 2012, it’s very rare.

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Johanna Howes: Yeah, yeah. Actually one thing that I didn’t realise was that Physics Girl, she’s on YouTube, Dianna Cowern, she’s quite popular actually. She won it a couple of years ago, I think. She won it the year the question was what is colour. And I saw her video a few months ago and it’s really fun. So yeah, there’s a lot of people who have entered the competition that you might know if you’re up on the YouTube community and that kind of stuff.

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Ben Newsome: Absolutely. And what we’ll do is we’ll, we always post these conversations up on the Fizzics website and we’ll make sure we embed those YouTube videos because they’re just really cool. And striking examples about getting content out clearly to kids.

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Johanna Howes: Yeah, definitely. I think it’s one of those things that I don’t think a lot of people think about when they’re trying to explain stuff to kids. Yeah, it’s an interesting kind of exercise, I think. Yeah.

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Ben Newsome: So if you had, I don’t know, some aspiring Masters of Science Communicators or whoever wanted to enter the thing which is coming up in December, and by the way we really should plug that because the 1st of December is only around the corner. It’s like what, a week away from this conversation we’re talking about?

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Johanna Howes: I think so, first of December the next question comes out.

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Ben Newsome: So let’s just say someone gets in touch with you and go, “Hey Jo, how do I go about doing this?” What would be the advice you would give to someone who is aspiring to produce a quick three-minute pitch on the question which will be released soon?

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Johanna Howes: I think yeah, my advice would be think about your audience, definitely. I think one of the things that really stuck out to me, so part of the competition is that the kids all vote in their different classrooms. And then three finalists from each category are chosen, and then they do this thing called the World Assembly. Which is like a livestream video conference thing where they chat to a bunch of different classrooms around the world. And they get to discuss the finalists and what they liked about them, what they didn’t like, or just general impressions about the videos and that kind of stuff. And about the written entries as well. And I remember staying up until 2 o’clock in the morning to watch that. Because time differences are a thing. Yeah, and just listening to what the kids said about each of the videos and each of the written entries was really interesting.

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Johanna Howes: I think one of the main things that, if you’re thinking about entering the Flame Challenge, one of the biggest things to remember is that these kids are 11. Which means that yeah, they’re kids, but you shouldn’t talk down to them. You know what I mean? Like they know what they’re talking about, they know heaps more than you think they do, and they know what they like and they know what they want, if that makes any sense. Yeah, and I would also recommend as well, if you look at the Flame Challenge website, you can actually see past World Assemblies, so past recordings of kids talking about the video entries. So go and watch those and have a listen to those and see what they’re after and what they really enjoy as well. Yeah, it’s quite interesting listening to that as well. And I think potentially I had a bit of an advantage coming from a year performing for kids as well. You learn very, very quickly what works and what doesn’t.

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Ben Newsome: Oh yes. Those audiences can be brutal.

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Johanna Howes: Oh, so brutal! It’s pretty great. Particularly the older kids ’cause they’re like, what are you doing? Ah, yeah. So thinking about what they enjoy and how they think and what they really respond to as well, I think that’s really important. Yeah, and telling a story is so important, like I know I say that, I’ve been saying it a lot, but it’s really important. Like in my video I went through and like the ending clip, the one that got trotted out a lot at the World Science Festival and the assembly as well, they showed a clip and it’s the ending clip with the bit with the chicken. Which is pretty fun.

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Johanna Howes: Oh yeah, also include chickens. Apparently kids love chickens. I don’t understand. But…

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Ben Newsome: Who doesn’t love chickens really?

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Johanna Howes: It’s true, right? But yeah, if you haven’t seen my video as well, which probably a lot of you haven’t. I have this section at the end where I talk about how energy originally comes from the sun, and then the sun makes the plants grow, the plants get fed to the chickens, the chickens make an egg, then I take that egg and I bake it into a cake and then I eat the cake and it makes me really happy. And then I have this bit at the end where I say that it gives me a whole bunch of energy to run around and do a whole bunch of stuff, which is great ’cause I have to go and catch a chicken. And then there’s a chicken in the background that just runs around all over the shop. Apparently they loved it. I don’t understand.

[00:25:36]
Ben Newsome: I love it, it’s such a great description of what’s going on. And it’s got that extra level, I was just thinking as well. Like when you think about the law of conservation of energy, it turns out it is almost chicken or the egg anyway. Which kind of really worked for that question, amazingly.

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Johanna Howes: A bit of an accident.

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Ben Newsome: Oh hey, you take the accidents and you go along with it!

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Johanna Howes: No, I totally did that deliberately.

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Ben Newsome: And keep saying that! We’re okay! Yeah, absolutely. No worries, and so basically, yeah, just type in Flame Challenge, Alda Centre onto Google or your favourite device, and you will find all that information totally. So, and seriously, I really encourage anyone who is listening to consider, even just for your own interest, to see can you do this thing. Go for it, try. Don’t worry if you’re not in a museum or whatever, frankly it’s just about can you communicate a message. You don’t even have to be working in a school, it’s just can you communicate the message.

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Johanna Howes: Yeah, definitely.

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Ben Newsome: And that’s the beauty about it, and the equality about this, which is very, very cool.

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Johanna Howes: Yeah, so it’s open to pretty much anybody with a science background, really. So Hannah Holt, the lady that won the written entry this year, who is amazing and awesome and we had a lot of fun. She is a children’s book author and is a civil engineer as well. So really any STEM background really. And it’s so much fun. Filming that was an awful lot of fun. It was really great. Oh, and I can absolutely highly recommend including some sort of demo that the kids can do themselves as well. So I did the double ball bounce thing with the volleyball and the tennis ball.

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Ben Newsome: Oh, big ball, small ball, yeah exactly.

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Johanna Howes: Yeah! It’s so great. And so I have a slow-mo section in there. But one of the things that the kids were saying at the World Assembly that literally made me melt into a puddle, I’m not even kidding. One of the things the kids were saying at the World Assembly was that they watched the video and then at lunchtime a whole bunch of them went out and tried it. Which was so great! I was like, yes! Actually one of my friend’s kids who’s a little bit younger than 11 tried to do it himself and he couldn’t quite get it to work and so he accused me of Photoshop! And I was like, oh dude, I’m not that good at Photoshop! But just having something that they can try themselves as well I think worked really well. So yeah.

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Ben Newsome: No, I totally agree. And actually real passion for what we do, I really love using simple materials from the local corner shop. It’s so much more important. In fact, using the fancy equipment and glassware, if anything creates a disconnect. It really does. And so yeah, we’ll play with liquid nitrogen and whatnot too. But it comes down to, that if the kid can’t do it themselves, they’re less likely to want to even try the fancy stuff later. It’s just, give them a chance. A volleyball and a tennis ball. Heck, go for it! And it’d be interesting, kind of fun, you could challenge them and say let’s use a beach ball versus a tennis ball or a squash ball like you could have them all together, which one bounces the highest. Absolutely, I love it. Hey, thank you so much for jumping on board this podcast. And I know that you’ll be somewhat excited to hear what the next question is. I must say I’m very curious myself. Are you going to be involved in anything for the next year or so with the Alda Centre?

[00:28:54]
Johanna Howes: Not officially, I don’t think so. But we launched a thing on Twitter yesterday, was it yesterday or the day before, where we have been asking people to make up some science haikus. So it’s kind of like a preparation thing for the Flame Challenge question being released as well. So head on over to Twitter and post up your favourite haikus. So they’re poems that have five syllables and seven syllables then five syllables as well. So yeah, we’ve been posting those and trying to get that to go around the internet. I’ve had a few friends who have jumped on board and it’s just been really fun.

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Ben Newsome: Science haikus are a lot of fun. We actually once a couple of years ago put it in as part of a hey bonus points for haiku when people were applying to work for us. And some of the stuff that people put in was a lot of fun. Oh my gosh, now we really really like them!

[00:29:43]
Johanna Howes: They’re so great. I just wanted to read you one of them. One of my friends I feel like won the internet, he’s a mathematician and he just went: fractals everywhere. Take a closer look and find. Fractals everywhere. And then has like, repeat. And I was like, that is amazing. That’s so great.

[00:30:00]
Ben Newsome: That is fantastic. Wow. So yeah, keep an eye out on the Alda Centre and the Flame Challenge, the next question will be released very soon. So that’s the 1st of December. Yeah, go and follow the Alda Centre, so it’s @AldaCenter spelt the American way.

[00:30:21]
Johanna Howes: Perfect. So not r-e, it’s e-r.

[00:30:23]
Ben Newsome: Which is wrong, but that’s okay.

[00:30:25]
Johanna Howes: That’s alright. We got it.

[00:30:27]
Ben Newsome: And hello to all you Americans out there, we love you anyway!

[00:30:30]
Johanna Howes: It’s alright, I write for an American company.

[00:30:33]
Ben Newsome: That’s alright, I got a lot of friends in America that’ll all be smiling at me right now. But look, thank you very much for jumping on the podcast. And hey, how could people get in touch with you if they want to?

[00:30:44]
Johanna Howes: Yeah, absolutely. Well you can go and follow me on Twitter, so I’m @JoHMatrix, so J-O-H-M-A-T-R-I-X. I spell my nickname with an H, it’s a bit annoying but that’s okay. So you can follow me on Twitter. You can also have a look at my YouTube channel, so it’s called Class 509 Science History. It’s called that ’cause that’s where you find science history in the library, in Class 509. Yeah, so you can look me up on that as well. And I also have a website www.class509.com. And you can get in touch with me through that if you would like.

[00:31:20]
Ben Newsome: Perfect, and we’ll put those again in the show notes as well because you got a lot to share and really I’d love to hear from listeners who are genuinely going to apply for it. And hey, it would be great to just see what gets submitted, I’d love to hear that this stuff keeps growing and growing ’cause the bottom line is we’re all meant to be science communicators at heart no matter where you happen to work. It’s very, very cool.

[00:31:40]
Johanna Howes: Yeah, definitely.

[00:31:42]
Ben Newsome: So thanks very much Jo, have a fantastic day. Are you running off back to uni to go teach again?

[00:31:46]
Johanna Howes: No actually, we’re on holidays at the moment until there’s a summer school coming up in a couple of weeks in December, so I have suddenly a whole bunch of free time.

[00:31:54]
Ben Newsome: Oh so hard for some people! Fair enough.

[00:31:56]
Johanna Howes: I know, it’s just terrible.

[00:31:57]
Ben Newsome: Alright, on that note, you go and enjoy hitting the beach, I’m going to go back to work.

[00:32:01]
Johanna Howes: Oh sorry!

[00:32:02]
Ben Newsome: Ah no, but I can’t complain, I’m hitting the beach this weekend, it’ll be fantastic.

[00:32:07]
Johanna Howes: Sounds great. Thank you so much for having me, it’s been a lot of fun.

[00:32:10]
Announcer: This is the Fizzics Ed Podcast. We’re all about science, ed tech and more. To see 100 fun free experiments you can do with your class, go to fizzicseducation.com.au. That’s physics spelled F I Z Z I C S and click 100 free experiments.

[00:32:32]
Ben Newsome: And there you go, that was Dr Johanna Howes from the University of Wollongong who has so much energy and so much vigour when it comes to communicating science. And I tell you what, that must have been very useful considering her question was what is energy. Love her work. And so yeah definitely jump onto YouTube, go check out her submission because if you wanted to submit your own for the Flame Challenge, perhaps she’s got a few pointers in her own submission that’s worth definitely checking out. Hey, speaking of pointers, there were three things I definitely took away from this.

[00:33:00]
Ben Newsome: Number one: if you’ve only got three minutes, make your story as compelling and as emotive as possible. Don’t just give the bland facts, make them interesting and vibrant as much as possible. Number two for me is break it down into small chunks and steps. Communicate it clearly, use simple visual imagery that allows your audience to really understand what you’re trying to talk about, especially when we’re speaking with children. And by the way, I love how Jo said respect your audience. 11-year-olds really do, they know a lot of stuff, talk to them like they know stuff. Don’t talk down to them. Give them a reason to go, you know what, I love you as a communicator.

[00:33:36]
Ben Newsome: And number three, be memorable, be fun. I love how Jo used chickens. I mean what a brilliant idea. Use some chickens. Kids love chickens, why not use them? It’s a great idea so that people remember your presentation and it makes you stand out.

[00:33:51]
Announcer: This is the Fizzics Ed Podcast. We’re excited about science. Grab a copy of our new book, Be Amazing: How to Teach Science the Way Primary Kids Love from our website. Just search Be Amazing book. It’s available in hard copy and ebook. Go to fizzicseducation.com.au. That’s physics spelled F I Z Z I C S.

[00:34:10]
Ben Newsome: As you can hear, this episode is very much about science communication in its purest form. How do we grab the audience’s attention? And you know what, it comes down to engagement. A former colleague of mine had this phrase, “engage me or enrage me”. So if they’re engaged, you’ve won out, you’re not going to have to deal with as many classroom management issues. That was Dr Simon Crook, who is a massive advocate for getting kids involved in science in every single form you can find. And you can check him out on last week’s episode. And you know what, check out all the episodes, there’s so many people from museums, zoos, aquariums, schools, just people who love teaching science and doing it well.

[00:34:46]
Announcer: Thanks for listening to the Fizzics Ed Podcast. Sign up now for our free fortnightly email newsletter. It’s loaded with details on new experiments you can do, STEM teaching articles, new gadgets, exclusive offers and upcoming events. Go to fizzicseducation.com.au. Scroll to the bottom and add your email.

[00:35:05]
Ben Newsome: And we’ve just about come to the end of the Fizzics Ed Podcast, but there’s still more to come. Next week we are checking out what it was like at the Youth Eco Summit, which is a massive event held every year lately at Sydney Olympic Park. It’s all about the kids getting into the environment and sustainability. Lots of fun and a big event held in the heart of Sydney. But until then, I hope you’re making your science classrooms or wherever you happen to be as engaging and as awesome as possible. You’ve been listening to me, Ben Newsome from Fizzics Education, and you’ve been listening to the Fizzics Ed Podcast. I hope to catch you next time.

[00:35:34]
Announcer: You’ve been listening to another Fizzics Ed Podcast. We’re excited about science. Subscribe to us on iTunes to download the next episode as soon as it’s released. And don’t forget, for hundreds of ideas, free experiments, our new Be Amazing book and more, go to fizzicseducation.com.au. That’s physics spelled F I Z Z I C S.

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Frequently Asked Questions

What is the Flame Challenge?
The Flame Challenge is an international competition started by Alan Alda and the Alda Centre for Communicating Science at Stony Brook University. Each year, scientists are challenged to answer a complex scientific question—such as “What is a flame?” or “What is energy?”—in a way that is engaging and understandable to an 11-year-old audience.

Who judges the Flame Challenge entries?
Unlike most scientific competitions, the Flame Challenge is judged by thousands of 11-year-old students in classrooms all over the world. This unique format ensures that the communication is truly effective for the target demographic and gives children a sense of ownership and confidence in the world of science.

What are Key Communication Messages (KCMs)?
Key Communication Messages are the core pieces of information a communicator wants their audience to remember. Johanna Howes recommends identifying the main points you wish to convey and then narrowing them down to a few high-impact messages to avoid overwhelming the audience, especially when working within a short timeframe.

How can story-telling improve science communication?
Story-telling helps bridge the gap between abstract definitions and real-world application. By embedding scientific facts into a narrative—such as Johanna Howes’s “chicken and the egg” story for energy transfer—communicators provide a relatable context that helps children visualise and retain complex information.

Why does the podcast recommend using simple materials for experiments?
Ben Newsome and Johanna Howes discuss how “fancy” lab equipment can create a disconnect for students. Using everyday items from a local shop, such as a volleyball or a tennis ball, makes science feel accessible. If a child feels they can replicate an experiment themselves, they are much more likely to engage with the subject matter deeply.

Extra thought ideas to consider

The Balance of Jargon and Understanding
Consider how the use of a single technical word, such as oxidation, can accidentally shut down a child’s curiosity if not properly explained. How can educators introduce essential scientific vocabulary without falling into the trap of using jargon to define jargon? Reflect on the “plain English” approach and how it might be used to build a stronger foundation before technical terms are introduced.

Respecting the Young Audience
The 11-year-old judges in the Flame Challenge are noted for being “brutal” but insightful. Think about the level of respect we afford students during science communication. Are we simplifying our content to the point of “talking down” to them, or are we challenging them with deep concepts packaged in engaging, respectful ways? Consider how the “student-as-judge” model could be applied to your own classroom assessments.

The “Recess Test” for Experiments
Johanna Howes noted that students went out at lunchtime to try her double ball bounce demo after seeing her video. This “recess test” is a powerful indicator of successful engagement. When designing a lesson or presentation, consider if the materials and methods are simple enough that a student would feel empowered to try them the moment they leave the classroom.