Audio Transcript

Published: March 11, 2018
APA 7 Citation: Newsome, B. (Host). (2018, March 11). Student fossil digs & more at Kronosaurus Korner [Audio podcast transcript]. Fizzics Education.
https://www.fizzicseducation.com.au/podcast/fizzicsed/student-fossil-digs-more-at-kronosaurus-korner/

Ben Newsome CF is the recipient of the 2023 UTS Chancellor’s Award for Excellence and a Churchill Fellow. He is a global leader in science communication and the founder of Fizzics Education.

[00:00:00]
Michelle Johnston: I still had another week and a half to go of my Churchill Fellowship, and apart from my husband and my two boys, no one else was aware that I’d applied, let alone got it. It was all a big shock. I came home, was back in Brisbane for a week after the fellowship finished, and then started up here in June of last year and hit the ground running. We had a dig within the first two weeks of me starting, a big week-long dig, and it’s just been go-go-go ever since. And Ben, I tell you, it’s just magical. It’s wonderful.

[00:00:36]
Ben Newsome: Hit the ground running she certainly did. Michelle Johnston fell in love with marine fossils whilst at the Brisbane Ekka. Wind it forward to now, she’s the Curator and Interpretive Manager for Kronosaurus Korner, this fantastic museum in the heart of outback Queensland.

[00:00:53]
Announcer: You’re listening to the Fizzics Ed Podcast. For hundreds of ideas, free experiments and more, go to fizzicseducation.com.au. And now, here’s your host, Ben Newsome.

[00:01:09]
Ben Newsome: Yes, welcome again to another Fizzics Ed Podcast. Big week again this week. We are speaking with Michelle Johnston, who is a highly experienced marine reptile paleontologist who very much cares about her marine reptiles. She’s been working on the Kronosaurus and got awarded a Churchill Fellowship in 2016 to not only investigate international large marine reptile fossil records, but to look at remote paleo-tourism. From an education point of view, this is highly exciting because she can get you in amongst the fossils with your students. How cool is that? Today is certainly about following your passion. Michelle, thank you so much for jumping on the podcast.

[00:02:26]
Michelle Johnston: Thank you so much, Ben. It’s really delightful to be here.

[00:02:30]
Ben Newsome: I was so stoked that Deb put me in touch with you. In case our listeners haven’t heard, there was an episode we did previously with the Gympie Bone Museum, Deb and Jamie Cook, who are doing awesome stuff in Gympie getting a regional museum up off the ground. Deb referred me to Michelle, and Michelle’s been kind enough to donate a Friday morning, which is very cool. Michelle, what do you get up to, so people know?

[00:02:57]
Michelle Johnston: I’m the curator at Kronosaurus Korner, which is a marine fossil museum out in outback Queensland. We’re in Richmond, halfway between Townsville and Mount Isa. It’s perhaps the biggest marine fossil museum in Australia. It’s all local stuff that we’ve got, found by the graziers and members of the public, just like our listeners. It showcases those fossils, helps people with finding their own, and we do educational programmes with schools as well.

[00:03:38]
Ben Newsome: How do you end up being a curator of a museum in the middle of outback Queensland? How did that happen?

[00:03:46]
Michelle Johnston: It’s a crazy story. Let’s jump back to 2005. I was at the Brisbane Ekka, our big agricultural show, and I had my two young sons with me; they were six and three at the time. They wanted to know about this ammonite. Now, an ammonite is a big circular creature, like a giant shell. The fossil was the size of a truck tyre. We were a little daunted because it was either talk to this group of Country Women’s Association ladies or this grazier about the fossil. We talked to the grazier and he said, “Come out to Richmond, you can find your own fossils, we’ll show you a good time, it’s a great place to be.”

[00:04:38]
Michelle Johnston: Fast forward to 2009. We finally got out here, my husband and the two boys. I personally fell in love with the area. I wanted to live out here. It’s a beautiful, simple lifestyle. We’ve got a town of about 700 or 800 people. But being married to a grown-up, my husband said, “No, we’re not moving out.” So we compromised, and the compromise was that I could visit as often as we could afford to, which was five times within that first year.

[00:05:10]
Michelle Johnston: In 2010, the biennial fossil festival was on and I dragged the family up to Richmond for that. We were still living in Brisbane, and I met Colin McHenry who had just finished his PhD on the Kronosaurus. As a family, we really gelled with him. He had kids my age. I said to him, “Mate, how did you do your PhD with little kids?” and he said, “It was easy.” I don’t joke, that was his quote. He invited me to study with him at Monash University. I thought, “Mate, I’m just a nurse.”

[00:05:55]
Michelle Johnston: So here we are, me with my nursing background, studying a Master’s looking at the skull anatomy of this Kronosaurus. Life got in the way; I had a life-threatening accident on a quad bike in Richmond, which was quite traumatic. Life was put on hold from the paleontology perspective for a couple of years, but once I got on the right road again, I just kept taking opportunities given to me. I did some research assistant work with a fellow at the University of Queensland looking at gastropods, little tiny shells. I went on digs and was really enthusiastic.

[00:06:48]
Michelle Johnston: I had this crazy dream that I wanted a Churchill Fellowship to go overseas to look at large marine reptile fossils and remote paleo-tourism. One of the problems with marine paleontology is that it’s not considered as sexy as dinosaurs. Everyone wants to study dinosaurs, they’re so cool. But no one wants to do marine reptiles. So in 2016, I put in an application for this fellowship thinking it would take me five years to get it, but they gave it to me there and then. I was successful in my first year.

[00:07:38]
Michelle Johnston: I came up to Richmond to collect samples of rock to take overseas as gifts because the fossils out here are beautiful. There’s a particular place I like where you just turn the rocks over and there are fossils. I met with the Mayor of Richmond, John Wharton. He asked me to be an ambassador for the town, which was a big privilege, and we discussed setting up a twinning with Richmond and Lyme Regis in the UK, which is where marine paleontology started with Mary Anning back in the day.

[00:08:23]
Michelle Johnston: I took that pretty seriously. When the position for curator came up whilst I was overseas, I put my application in thinking, “Worst case scenario, I don’t get it and it’s interview experience.” But I got an interview and interviewed for an hour over the phone from the Galapagos Islands of all places. It was amazing. I was told a couple of days later that I got the job. The only problem was they wanted me to start ASAP, but I still had another week and a half to go of my fellowship.

[00:10:02]
Ben Newsome: You strike me as someone who just goes, “I’m going to jump in the deep end and try and swim as best I can.”

[00:10:08]
Michelle Johnston: Oh yeah, that’s pretty much how I go. Most of the time, I swim. I haven’t drowned just yet. I don’t plan on drowning, but you’ve just got to give life a go. You really do.

[00:10:21]
Ben Newsome: I totally respect that. If anyone’s curious, it is worth checking out churchilltrust.com.au just to see what that’s all about. I was lucky enough to be involved with that for video conferencing in science education, but there are a lot of ways you can get involved, travel the world, and check all that stuff out. It’s awesome. So obviously, you see this ammonite at the Ekka. A truck-sized ammonite is insane. If you’re wondering what ammonites are, think of a curly shell that looks like an octopus coming out, but it is definitely not related to an octopus. Were you always into fossils and rocks as a kid, or is this something that grew with you?

[00:11:04]
Michelle Johnston: No, a switch turned on pretty much from that moment at the Ekka. My boys were really nerdy when they were little and wanted to know about different things. In order for them to find stuff out, I had to find it out as well, and it just captivated me. I wasn’t interested at all when I was little. It just happened in my thirties. I can’t explain it.

[00:11:38]
Ben Newsome: What I love is that passion and energy going into this museum in Richmond. Not only are you the curator, you also work as the interpretive manager, which means figuring out how people perceive and understand the exhibits. I know you’ve only just started and are still finding your feet, but what’s it like to create museum-quality exhibits so the public can understand it, regardless of their age?

[00:12:11]
Michelle Johnston: It’s really exciting and something I take very seriously because I think too often museums are stuffy and overly scientific. You need to appeal to the general public. For example, we’ve got fossils from a chimaeroid, which is a fish or a shark that lived at the bottom of the ocean. Instead of having normal shark teeth, it’s got these dental plates. We’re finding lots of those at the moment, so much so that I’m creating a new exhibit.

[00:12:56]
Michelle Johnston: Last August, I arrived back from lunch to find the two ugliest mummified fish sitting on my lab table. I thought, “What are these?” One of my volunteers had sent up from south-east Australia a modern-day chimaeroid, I think a monkfish or a ratfish, that has these exact same dental plates. It’s got a dorsal spine containing venom. It’s essentially a modern-day version of our fossils.

[00:13:53]
Michelle Johnston: At the moment, I’m creating the interpretive part of that exhibit. I’ve got the fossils ready to go, and I’ve got this fish we affectionately call “stinky fish.” He doesn’t smell that bad. He was actually mummified using Egyptian methods. This gentleman took a great deal of time and consideration to prepare this for me. It’s very special. I’m going through information about the living species and doing a comparison between the current species and the extinct fossil record. I do a lot of comparative anatomy, which helps people generally to interpret these fossils.

[00:14:53]
Michelle Johnston: Another example is a freshwater crocodile I collected. I processed its skull, so I have the bones, teeth, and scutes. The jaw is quite similar to a Pterosaur jaw, which we’ve found specimens of. The scutes are very similar to those of our armoured dinosaur, which has recently been renamed as Kunbarrasaurus—you might have known it as Minmi.

[00:15:35]
Michelle Johnston: I want to put the scutes from this crocodile on display so members of the public can touch and feel them. This gives them a better appreciation of the Kunbarrasaurus. It’s just another link helping the general public understand what is so special about the fossil.

[00:16:09]
Ben Newsome: Absolutely. Looking at your website, I want to go out to Richmond. The fact that kids and adults can get right up close to that Kronosaurus is brilliant. It’s really well lit with protective barriers so we don’t get too close. But the fact that you’ve got these events like digging at dusk and digging at dawn is a lot of fun. How do people get involved in that?

[00:16:55]
Michelle Johnston: If you come out to Richmond, we’ll show you a good time and I promise you’ll find fossils you can keep. I do ask that if you find something significant, you donate it to the museum. We acknowledge that donation in many ways, and you’re welcome to come back and visit your fossil. With Easter kicking off the tourism season, we’re about to start digging at dusk.

[00:17:32]
Michelle Johnston: You come to the museum, pay your fee, and I take you out to the public dig pits. It includes your fossicking permit. I teach you methods to find your own fossils. You can either rely on potluck, or you can come with me and I’ll teach you the methods proven successful in finding our big specimens. You never know what you’re going to find.

[00:18:26]
Ben Newsome: That’s awesome. I was able to get involved with the Australian Age of Dinosaurs digs at one point, about six years ago. It’s unreal. Have you had a chance to have any school groups do that, or is it mainly adults?

[00:19:03]
Michelle Johnston: We’ve started a partnership with Heatley Secondary College in Townsville, which is very exciting. They’ve got a fossil club up and running. School groups can certainly come out. I suggest they come for a couple of days. We’ll do a museum tour so I can explain what the creatures are and what we’re looking for, and then I can take them out to the dig pits. It can be as long or short as you’d like. Essentially, whatever your school wants, we will do within reason.

[00:20:02]
Ben Newsome: Fair enough. One event that grabbed my attention—the name just sounds fun—is CSI Digs. What’s all that about?

[00:20:11]
Michelle Johnston: CSI Digs is a play on crime scene investigation. Every year we have a big dig from Monday to Friday. It’s a two-way street: we give paying members of the public the opportunity to participate in a professional paleontology science dig, and in return, they give us their time, energy, and muscles to help retrieve a large specimen.

[00:20:59]
Michelle Johnston: For example, last year we went out to a place northwest of here and extracted perhaps 50% of an Elasmosaurus, which is a marine reptile that looks like the Loch Ness Monster.

[00:21:48]
Michelle Johnston: We have packages where you can just pay for the dig, or we can put together an accommodation and food package. I have parents with their teenagers coming on this dig this year. If you’re interested in coming out with your teenager, please get in contact with me. I know other digs have age restrictions, but I’m happy to work with you on a case-by-case basis.

[00:22:48]
Ben Newsome: That’s really cool. Obviously, you need to protect the fossils; that’s paramount. The fact that you’re looking at engagement that way is awesome. Out of interest, if someone wanted to follow in your footsteps—firstly they have to go to the Ekka and find a fossil. But I know we have a number of dinosaur nuts in our audience. We’ve always said that paleontology is a narrow field to jump into and highly competitive. How do you get involved from the ground up?

[00:23:32]
Michelle Johnston: You just need to make contacts and build on opportunities that are given to you. You don’t have to be the smartest kid at school. Just because you might have learning difficulties doesn’t mean anything. You just have to have passion, be a bit out there searching for opportunities, and then take them up.

[00:23:55]
Ben Newsome: That’s really good advice. People will definitely want to get in touch with you. How would they do that?

[00:24:13]
Michelle Johnston: There are a couple of ways. They can go to our website, Kronosaurus Korner. That’s Kronosaurus with a K and Korner with a K. My email is [email protected]. Alternatively, they can call us at the museum on 1300 576 665. If you’re overseas, add +61.

[00:24:41]
Ben Newsome: Absolutely.

[00:24:44]
Michelle Johnston: I’m more than happy for people to get in contact with me, especially those with crazy ideas. For example, one target market I really want to look at is distance education kids, like the School of the Air, and home-schooled children. Is there any reason why a bunch of home-schooled kids can’t come out and have a camp here for a week to learn about paleontology?

[00:25:23]
Ben Newsome: That would be awesome. It’s outback Queensland, so you have to make a genuine effort to get out there. If you’re going to do that, you might as well stay for a while and do a deep dive on the subject.

[00:25:39]
Michelle Johnston: Absolutely.

[00:25:40]
Ben Newsome: There are also opportunities for people to connect with you via the internet. Who knows what might be coming up where you can connect from a classroom or home directly to the museum in Richmond.

[00:26:01]
Michelle Johnston: I’m actually already doing that, Ben. There’s a cluster of six one-teacher schools between Townsville, Ayr, and Charters Towers. They came out for a camp last year, and following that, I was invited into their classroom once a week for their earth science lessons via the internet. It was incredible.

[00:26:35]
Ben Newsome: It’s great fun. I had to have an early night last night because tonight I’ve got to do a connection to a school in Tennessee starting at 1:00 AM. I’m going to put the swag in the office to sleep.

[00:26:51]
Michelle Johnston: That sounds like a great idea.

[00:26:53]
Ben Newsome: It’s a bit of a side thing. But you’re obviously doing a major role in getting paleontology out there and showing Australia’s heritage. Thank you so much for jumping on the podcast.

[00:27:16]
Michelle Johnston: Thanks so much, Ben.

[00:27:19]
Announcer: This is the Fizzics Ed Podcast. We’re all about science, ed tech and more. To see 100 fun free experiments you can do with your class, go to fizzicseducation.com.au. That’s physics spelled F I Z Z I C S and click 100 free experiments.

[00:27:37]
Ben Newsome: Well, there you go, someone highly passionate. You can really hear that Michelle Johnston loves what she gets to do. Stumbling on an ammonite fossil at the Ekka launched her onto this career path. She’s doing a fantastic job for paleontology and the township of Richmond. The area loves the Dinosaur Trail. Having people visit is important for paleo-tourism and genuine science. I highly encourage getting in touch with her.

[00:28:21]
Announcer: Hi guys. Looking for more science with an Australian twist? Well, you’re in luck, because here at Fizzics we’re launching a fresh take on science in the upcoming podcast, Fizzics Twist. Get up to speed on the latest science and tech news where we look at what these discoveries might mean for all of us. Powered by Fizzics Education, Fizzics Twist highlights the most interesting and sometimes the funniest side of what’s happening in our world. We’re kicking off in a few weeks, so stay tuned.

[00:28:48]
Ben Newsome: You might remember my chat a couple of weeks ago with Steven Rumbold from the Australian Age of Dinosaurs Museum. They’re not far from Richmond in Queensland, located in Winton instead. I went into how to make a simple fossil out of dough. I thought let’s look at what else you can explore. Often hard objects like bones and shells turn into fossils. Here’s a simple experiment you can do to show students that you can actually remove the hardness out of these things.

[00:29:27]
Ben Newsome: It’s a classic known as the rubber chicken bones experiment. All you need is some vinegar and clean chicken bones. Next time you have chicken, save the bones. Clean them up, get rid of all the muscle and tissue, and place them in some vinegar. Let them soak for a few days until they become soft and bendable. If you leave them long enough, you can even tie them into knots.

[00:30:06]
Ben Newsome: Once you’ve tied them in a knot, take them out of the vinegar and leave them outside. They’ll start to harden as they reabsorb carbon from the carbon dioxide in the air. What is going on? Vinegar is a mild acid, and bones are roughly 10% calcium carbonate. The calcium carbonate forms a framework on which the bone grows. As the bone soaks, the calcium carbonate reacts with the vinegar, breaking down that hard matrix. Imagine showing this to kids and asking, “Will this form a fossil just as well as a standard hard bone?” The answer is, “No, not a chance.”

[00:30:35]
Announcer: You’re listening to the Fizzics Ed Podcast. Why don’t you book us for a science show or workshop in your school? We love seeing students get excited about science, and you will too. Go to fizzicseducation.com.au and click on schools for more info.

[00:30:44]
Ben Newsome: I really love it when we get to speak with people like Michelle Johnston who are following their dream and making a genuine difference. And last week someone was also doing that, Siân Keys.

[00:30:51]
Siân Keys: What was really powerful was that during National Science Week, those participants actually ran a hands-on workshop for the Canberra community, which challenged people’s ideas about who science is for, because they were the ones teaching everyone else.

[00:30:57]
Ben Newsome: This is well worth checking out—last week’s episode with Siân Keys, heading up Science Ability. But anyway, we are at the end of this podcast. I hope you’ve had a bit of fun. I’ll catch you next week.

[00:31:05]
Announcer: You’ve been listening to another Fizzics Ed Podcast. We’re excited about science. Subscribe to us on iTunes to download the next episode as soon as it’s released. And don’t forget, for hundreds of ideas, free experiments, our new Be Amazing book and more, go to fizzicseducation.com.au. That’s physics spelled F I Z Z I C S.

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Frequently Asked Questions

What makes Kronosaurus Korner unique compared to other fossil museums?
Kronosaurus Korner is one of Australia’s premier marine fossil museums, specifically focusing on local specimens found in outback Queensland. Unlike many museums that focus on dinosaurs, this centre specialises in the marine reptiles that inhabited the ancient inland sea, showcasing fossils found by local graziers and members of the public.

How can the public get involved in finding their own fossils at the museum?
The museum offers “Digging at Dusk” and “Digging at Dawn” programmes where visitors are taken to public fossicking pits. Under the guidance of experts like Michelle Johnston, participants are taught successful fossicking methods and are often allowed to keep the fossils they find, provided they are not of significant scientific importance to the museum’s collection.

What is the “CSI Dig” mentioned in the podcast?
The CSI Dig is a week-long paleontology science dig held annually. It is a “two-way street” where members of the public pay to participate in a professional excavation. In exchange for the experience, the museum utilises the participants’ time and physical labour to help retrieve large specimens, such as the 50% complete Elasmosaurus extracted during a previous dig.

How does Michelle Johnston use modern animals to explain ancient fossils?
Michelle utilises comparative anatomy to help the public understand extinct species. For example, she uses mummified modern-day chimaeroids (like ratfish) to explain the dental plates of fossilised sharks, and crocodile jaws to show similarities with Pterosaur anatomy. This helps bridge the gap between abstract fossils and living biology.

Can students in remote areas access the museum’s educational resources?
Yes, the museum is highly active in distance education. Michelle has pioneered virtual classroom visits via the internet, allowing her to join earth science lessons for remote one-teacher schools. The museum also encourages home-schooling groups and “School of the Air” students to participate in week-long paleontology camps.

Extra thought ideas to consider

The “Unsexy” Side of Science: Michelle mentions that marine paleontology is often overshadowed by the public’s obsession with dinosaurs. This raises an interesting point about science communication: how do we ensure that “less popular” but equally vital scientific fields receive the funding and interest they deserve? Discuss how changing the narrative around niche subjects can inspire the next generation of researchers.

Non-Linear Career Paths: Michelle’s transition from nursing to museum curation highlights that a passion for science can be pursued at any stage of life. Consider how the education system can better support “non-traditional” pathways into STEM, especially for individuals who may have struggled with traditional schooling or who discover their scientific calling later in their careers.

Citizen Science and Community Heritage: Most of the museum’s collection was discovered by local graziers and everyday citizens. This demonstrates the power of community involvement in scientific preservation. Discuss the balance between allowing tourists to “find and keep” fossils versus the need to protect significant scientific heritage for the public good.