Audio Transcript

Published: 7 June 2017
APA 7 Citation: Newsome, B. (Host). (2017, June 7). What to know when putting science festivals together [Audio podcast transcript]. Fizzics Education. https://www.fizzicseducation.com.au/podcast/fizzicsed/what-to-know-when-putting-together-science-festivals/

Ben Newsome CF is the recipient of the 2023 UTS Chancellor’s Award for Excellence and a Churchill Fellow. He is a global leader in science communication and the founder of Fizzics Education.

[00:00:00]
Announcer: You’re listening to the Fizzics Ed Podcast. For hundreds of ideas, free experiments and more, go to fizzicseducation.com.au. And now, here’s your host, Ben Newsome.

[00:00:11]
Announcer: And now, here’s your host, Ben Newsome:

[00:00:15]
Ben Newsome: Putting on a science festival takes a lot of effort, and today’s guest certainly knows all about that. Vanessa Barrett is from the Australian Botanic Garden in Mount Annan, but she has worked on a ton of festivals, both small and very, very large with upwards of five to up to 10,000 people attending, with many stakeholders involved as well. You’re going to get a lot out of this chat. You’ll find out what it was like to engage not only science communicators and teachers with the public, but bringing on the scientists themselves who do the actual research. We go into what works, what doesn’t work, and actually, funnily enough, we end up with another quote towards the song, ‘Don’t Worry, Be Happy’.

[00:01:00]
Announcer: This is the FizzicsEd podcast.

[00:01:04]
Ben Newsome: Yes, it seems like there’s going to be a recurring theme with 80s and 90s songs coming into this podcast. Welcome. My name is Ben Newsome from Fizzics Education and welcome again to the FizzicsEd podcast. In this session, you’re going to get a lot out of the knowledge that Vanessa Barrett from the Australian Botanic Gardens can share when it comes to running science festivals. She has had a lot of experience over many years, not only running science festivals but being a teacher in the classroom, as a science communicator in multiple museums. She’s got a ton of knowledge and I really hope you can get a lot out of this.

[00:01:34]
Ben Newsome: She’s done work not only with the Australian Botanic Gardens, but she’s been a community and programmes education leader for Centennial Parklands. She’s managed the public programmes and the postgraduate recruitment for the University of Sydney. She was a science communication project officer for the Australian Museum. She was a science communicator for the Natural History Museum out of London. She’s worked for Taronga Zoo. She’s done a bucket load of stuff. She’s a good friend of ours for many years and I hope you get a lot out of this. Enjoy.

[00:02:04]
Announcer: You’re listening to the FizzicsEd podcast. Why don’t you book us for a science show or workshop in your school? We love seeing students get excited about science, and you will too. Go to fizzicseducation.com.au and click on schools for more info.

[00:02:20]
Ben Newsome: Okay, hi Vanessa, welcome to the FizzicsEd podcast.

[00:02:23]
Vanessa Barrett: Hello Ben.

[00:02:24]
Ben Newsome: Hello Vanessa. Okay, probably a bit of full disclosure here. I’ve known Vanessa Barrett for many years and she gave me a funny look when I said hello like that.

[00:02:35]
Vanessa Barrett: Nice to meet you.

[00:02:37]
Ben Newsome: Alright, no worries. So Vanessa, obviously some people will have run into you around Sydney and various science events and things, but there are going to be people listening who have never heard you before, or don’t know what you do. So, Vanessa, what do you do? What gets you going in the morning?

[00:02:52]
Vanessa Barrett: I’m Vanessa Barrett and I would call myself a science communicator. I started off studying science, thinking I was going to work in science, and have gradually moved further away from the world of pure scientists to more into science education and science communication.

[00:03:09]
Ben Newsome: Okay, so what were you actually doing in science prior to communicating it?

[00:03:13]
Vanessa Barrett: When I was in high school, I wanted to be a vet and I was obsessed with animals. I was ready to apply for veterinary science. And then luckily, I got a job when I was in year 11 at a vet and suddenly realised that I did not want to be a vet, that what happened there and the things vets do is not what I was interested in.

[00:03:33]
Vanessa Barrett: In fact, I found it quite traumatic, some of the upsetting things that I had to do related to animals. So, I started to switch and I met someone who was studying zoology, and she was really similar to me and that was enough, that inspired me. I thought, I really want to study zoology.

[00:03:51]
Vanessa Barrett: Funnily enough, my teachers at school were really against me doing that because I wasn’t really as good at science as I was at English and languages and arts subjects. So they were really trying to push me into a more of a communications or journalism type of degree. But I held my ground because science was my interest and as it turns out that was the right decision, but there needed to be a few steps along the way.

[00:04:18]
Ben Newsome: Yeah, it’s cool. Obviously, you don’t have to just give up animals completely. I know you look after a bunch of them.

[00:04:24]
Vanessa Barrett: That was cool. That’s the other thing. I didn’t actually know what you did with a zoology degree. I probably pictured myself swimming with dolphins and rescuing turtles or something. I wasn’t really sure. And I certainly wasn’t aware of how hard it was to get a job and how much further study I would have had to do after my bachelor’s degree and even just getting my foot in the door with research projects.

[00:04:48]
Vanessa Barrett: So I finished my science degree. I was still working at the vet and then not long after that, I just started seeing jobs come up where you were teaching kids about science.

[00:05:00]
Vanessa Barrett: I got this weird job travelling around New South Wales and actually Victoria and Tasmania, teaching a rainforest show. I was going to a new school every day.

[00:05:11]
Vanessa Barrett: It was so fun. It was hard work because I had to drive a lot and I was on my own. I had this car full of stuff. But it definitely gave me my first taste of what I would call science communication and that was really the end of it for me. I thought this is what I want to do.

[00:05:27]
Ben Newsome: Fantastic. Obviously, roll forward to today. This is certainly not your first day doing science communication. What is it that you’re actually doing right now?

[00:05:34]
Vanessa Barrett: So, this has probably been one of my most challenging jobs. I’ve been working at the Royal Botanic Garden in Sydney, and its two sister gardens, Mount Tomah and Mount Annan. We also include Centennial Park in that mix. I work as the science communicator. This job’s only existed for a year and a half and I was the first person to be in this job.

[00:05:57]
Vanessa Barrett: I already worked in the gardens and Centennial Park and I was aware of the science, but I knew they needed a lot of help. They lacked profile. No one really knew what the scientists did there, mostly even the internal people didn’t know what the scientists did. And they were starting to lose momentum with their funding.

[00:06:17]
Vanessa Barrett: I think there was a really big need to bring in some support. People with other sorts of skills and help them get the word out about what they’re working on and why it’s important.

[00:06:28]
Ben Newsome: These type of science engagement events obviously drive not only just visitorship, but also just learning about what is it that your organisation actually does. I know one of the things that you’re heavily involved in was the Science in the Swamp programme.

[00:06:40]
Vanessa Barrett: Yeah, so, Science in the Swamp, well, if I’m going to be completely honest, that started as a kind of every time a grant comes up, we would apply for it and we would find something to fit that grant.

[00:06:53]
Vanessa Barrett: And the National Science Week grants come up every year and they’re quite an attractive amount of money and we thought, what could we do in the eastern suburbs that isn’t already being done. We just went with a simple format of a free family day. And it got the funding. This would be the fifth year that Science in the Swamp‘s been running.

[00:07:14]
Vanessa Barrett: Do you know I think the other reason it worked and it attracted funding and it attracted support, it wasn’t about us. We weren’t trying to spruik ourselves. We were just basically a place where all of the local science groups and science communication groups could come together and do something.

[00:07:30]
Vanessa Barrett: It’s really fun. It sort of started off that way. It was just fun. We were all enjoying being there together and it drew a massive crowd and continues to do so.

[00:07:39]
Ben Newsome: Yeah, absolutely and the Science in the Swamp programme is unreal. I’ve seen massive walking around dinosaurs, I’ve seen fish in aquariums, I’ve seen a whole bunch of science for kids and preschool. What a great event.

[00:07:51]
Vanessa Barrett: It’s been great and every year we’ve changed it. We’ve tried to adjust it to different themes that Science Week might be having or international themes, just to keep it always something new so that families keep returning. I think it’s got to that point now where people know it’s coming up in the calendar. There’s a bit of loyalty there to come back every year and see what’s new.

[00:08:11]
Vanessa Barrett: But also to see their old favourites, like Fizzics Education being one of the old favourites. There’s a lot of people there who’ve just stuck with us year in, year out and people just love it. They look forward to it.

[00:08:22]
Ben Newsome: That’s fun. And obviously festivals are in your blood. You do so many events and things. What’s basically been coming up this year even?

[00:08:29]
Vanessa Barrett: So, look, we’ve just had this big challenge. We had Science in the Swamp and then Centennial Park merged with the three Botanic Gardens and I really sort of switched to a position where I’m trying to create a profile for the botanists and the plant scientists I work with.

[00:08:45]
Vanessa Barrett: So we’ve had to be super creative and thoughtful about how can we get these guys out in the public eye, get them mixing with kids, encouraging people to find out what they do, understand what they do.

[00:08:59]
Vanessa Barrett: And the reason it’s been so hard is because what they do is pretty complex and it’s not necessarily obviously practical or obviously relevant to people’s everyday lives. So we’ve had to be so creative. One of the events we’ve got coming up this year is called Botany Distilled, and I thought what could be more obvious than mixing botany with alcohol?

[00:09:25]
Ben Newsome: Of course.

[00:09:26]
Vanessa Barrett: Yeah, so we thought, we just know people will come to that and most people don’t stop and think about the science behind making alcohol and how related that is to plant science and a knowledge of plants and where you make alcohol from plants.

[00:09:40]
Vanessa Barrett: So we’ve got these great partners who make wine, beer, gin, and they’re plant experts. They are botanical scientists in a way. So we’ve got them coming to do an event and that’s fantastic. People will come to the Botanic Gardens, have a drink, have a taste test, but actually learn about the way that you can extract alcohol from plants.

[00:09:57]
Ben Newsome: Absolutely. I know it’s odd talking about this in an education podcast, but certainly we do have to talk about fermentation of alcohol and chemistry and biology. You actually spooked an old memory of mine. I read an old book. I’m going to get the title wrong. We’ll throw it in the show notes later, but there’s a great book, a green cover called The Drunken Botanist.

[00:10:13]
Vanessa Barrett: Oh, I’d have to read that.

[00:10:14]
Ben Newsome: It talks about actually how they do the science of making alcohol, not just the usual rye and potatoes, but cacao and papaya and everything.

[00:10:23]
Vanessa Barrett: You can do it with just about every plant. And the thing that hasn’t really been examined is using native Australian plants. And that’s because that’s our main area of interest, that’s what we’re trying to explore. So, this gin company came to us a few months ago and actually asked if they could harvest plants from within the Botanic Gardens and create a gin.

[00:10:44]
Ben Newsome: Wow.

[00:10:44]
Vanessa Barrett: That’s called the Royal Botanic Gin. And so it’s actually literally made from the plants within our garden. And people just love that, especially there’s a very strong connection between people and the Botanic Gardens. They feel like it’s their place.

[00:10:59]
Vanessa Barrett: And for me, I’ve actually realised that the plants within the garden, the garden itself is probably our best storytelling feature if I want to get people finding out about our science.

[00:11:09]
Ben Newsome: Storytelling is where it’s at and trying to make the hard science seem accessible is really the key in this sort of work. I’ve been across some schools that actually run their own events around community and all the rest. If you were in a school and they charged you with, hey, let’s get an event on to show what the kids know. Where would you go? Where would you start off with?

[00:11:28]
Vanessa Barrett: You mean in regards to plants?

[00:11:29]
Ben Newsome: Or anything. Really, imagine if you were teaching within the school and knowing that, hey, we’ve got this group of kids that want to show what they’re learning with the community around them. What are the sort of things that you might have seen with student-led type projects?

[00:11:43]
Vanessa Barrett: Look, they never cease to amaze me because the thing that I realised about kids is they are in a totally different world to the one that we’re in in terms of their comfort with technology.

[00:11:57]
Vanessa Barrett: Their access to information, you know, I could only dream of having that kind of information available to me when I was a kid where, like the science nerd, which was what I was, being able to just go on the internet and research their own topics and make their own ebooks and make their own films.

[00:12:15]
Vanessa Barrett: They contact us because they want to interview scientists for their project. And they’re not just talking about the old days where you just type up an assignment. They’re literally making podcasts and stuff like that. So I actually feel like some people worry that science is losing the interest of kids and kids possibly don’t want to become scientists anymore. I don’t see that.

[00:12:37]
Vanessa Barrett: I think they’ve got access to so many resources. You almost just have to give them the space to pursue the interests they have because all kids have some kind of scientific interest. You give them the space, they’ve got the tools, they’ve got the creativity and the skills that I wish I had.

[00:12:56]
Vanessa Barrett: They can go out and make amazing things. Some of the videos and stuff I’ve seen kids making about science topics, filming their own experiment over time and then stitching it together. They just amaze me. If I had to pay an agency to create that kind of stuff for me, I’d be paying thousands of dollars because no one at my work knows how to do it. But the kids do.

[00:13:20]
Vanessa Barrett: So yeah, I actually just think it’s giving priority in the classroom to science, showing your personal passion and seeding that so that they just roll with it.

[00:13:31]
Ben Newsome: Yeah, kids can come up with some wicked stuff. You can check out YouTube or whatever your video channels that you like, it’s stunning.

[00:13:36]
Vanessa Barrett: They’re really killing it. And it makes me really curious about what the future is going to look like using technology to tell stories. What they’re going to do with that talent and knowledge and skill.

[00:13:50]
Ben Newsome: You’ve been doing this for quite a while. What’s the most awesome science thing you’ve got to do in front of children?

[00:13:56]
Vanessa Barrett: Ah, jeez. Look, it’s just a bit of an obvious answer, but I worked at the Natural History Museum in London, and that was just a bit of a dream for me. It was a place that I’d always read about in books and if anyone had said to me you’re going to get to work there, walk amongst the collections and go behind the scenes and meet the scientists who work there and give the public access to those scientists and the collections. That’s just quite unbelievable.

[00:14:27]
Vanessa Barrett: Having said that, once I was there, I also realised that the museums in Australia are just as good, and that the scientists in Australia are just as good.

[00:14:40]
Vanessa Barrett: A little bit of my ideas about, wow, this is the pinnacle of science communication is a little bit false because I was really happy then to come back to the Australian Museum in Sydney and see that they were doing some possibly even more innovative things. They weren’t resting on their reputation as being such a famous place.

[00:15:05]
Vanessa Barrett: And if anything, the Natural History Museum had a curse because it’s so old and traditional that people don’t like it when they change from that.

[00:15:15]
Ben Newsome: Right.

[00:15:16]
Vanessa Barrett: Yeah. When I was there actually we were working on a brand new exhibition, a brand new centre, the Darwin Centre, which was meant to be a modern version of the museum and they built this huge, three-story cocoon to house the collections and there was a virtual tour that you could go through there. And it was quite amazing to see that no one went in there.

[00:15:36]
Ben Newsome: Right.

[00:15:37]
Vanessa Barrett: So people would literally skid to a stop at the end of the wooden floorboards of the old part of the museum and they would turn around and go back in and not enter the new part of the museum. And I just noticed people want to see the old museum, they want to see the dinosaurs, they want to see the bones, they want to see the old cabinets. And that’s not the expectation when they go to that museum to see the new stuff.

[00:16:00]
Ben Newsome: Fascinating, because I was only just talking with Isabelle Kingsley the other day. Those people who want to check it out, just go onto the podcast, just look up Isabelle Kingsley having a chat about her PhD around informal science education, and what people take away from science shows. And I bet you that’s almost a PhD in itself, even in psychology.

[00:16:16]
Vanessa Barrett: It really got to me because I’d been hired to work on that space. We had all this stuff set up in that space, like we had daily shows with the scientists. We had a biodiversity centre where you could bring in specimens that you’d found and you wanted to get identified. There was so much stuff in there.

[00:16:35]
Vanessa Barrett: We honestly could not get people to go into that area and I remember just standing out in the main hall, going up to people, inviting them in, offering to walk in with them, show them how cool it is. There was so much resistance.

[00:16:48]
Vanessa Barrett: I wonder now, like that was a few years ago. I wonder now how they’ve overcome that, what they’ve done to try and increase the foot traffic through to that new part. But they definitely learned something about their audience that they possibly didn’t know before.

[00:17:03]
Ben Newsome: Yeah, I remember when I first started doing this, someone once told me two things. They said, first, know your audience. Secondly, you’re only as good as your last show.

[00:17:10]
Vanessa Barrett: Oh, isn’t that the truth and a shame? I know you hardly get any time to enjoy the success of the last thing you do. We find that at work all the time. We roll out all these cool things and the next day we’re onto the next one.

[00:17:23]
Vanessa Barrett: But the Darwin Centre, the other thing that it really challenges is this whole new idea where you always have to have this interface between scientists and the public. So they also put a lot of the scientists’ labs and collection desks where they worked right next to the glass, so people could look in.

[00:17:40]
Vanessa Barrett: And I think you would pretty much declare it a failure, because again, the scientists felt really uncomfortable working in that way. And so did the public. Yeah, they felt uncomfortable. Everybody did.

[00:17:54]
Vanessa Barrett: So, look, I’ve thought about that coming back to Australia and seeing that constant push to open up the scientists to the public, constantly forcing them to be together. We’re about to open one of our research facilities in the Botanic Gardens with a slight sort of public-facing element later this year, our plant pathology lab.

[00:18:14]
Vanessa Barrett: I’m really nervous to see how it’s going to play out because we’ve gone from no interface between the public and our scientists to this first attempt to open up a lab. Have people be able to walk in, look through the windows, a bit of interpretation. It’d be really interesting to see how the experience goes for the scientists and for the public.

[00:18:35]
Ben Newsome: I wonder whether and this is just purely a thought bubble. So no references, resources, or even really prior thinking prior to now. I wonder if this is a similar situation that occurred a few decades ago when schools started to open up and started to show what happened within a school?

[00:18:50]
Vanessa Barrett: Yeah, it’s uncomfortable. I can see why it happens.

[00:18:54]
Ben Newsome: Yeah, totally.

[00:18:55]
Vanessa Barrett: And of course, there’s pros and cons and maybe it’s just an adjustment period of people getting used to it because it’s so different. I don’t think it’s, look, I still think it’s the right way to go because the world we live in now is where everyone expects to be able to find out what they want to find out and see what they want to see and preconceived notions.

[00:19:18]
Ben Newsome: Preconceived notions.

[00:19:19]
Vanessa Barrett: Yeah, and I mean in our case, a lot of our scientists are funded by the taxpayer. So I feel like they have that right to know what happens, what goes on. And I do still think there is no better way to show the science than to actually physically allow people to see it with their own eyes. But there are many ways to do that. And to come back to technology again, we could be utilising that better.

[00:19:44]
Ben Newsome: Ah, true, with permission and the right space you could easily even just cut, just use Periscope or YouTube Live, stream it out if you wanted to in the right space.

[00:19:53]
Vanessa Barrett: And hasn’t that shown how simple, like Periscope’s been massively popular and surprisingly so, because it’s sort of pretty rustic. But I watch like Costa and people like that get on Facebook all the time with their little videos and before you know it there’s thousands of people, not only watching but all talking to each other and asking questions.

[00:20:13]
Vanessa Barrett: It’s kind of nice to know that you can just do that with such low resources.

[00:20:21]
Ben Newsome: And it breaks down barriers. Not someone on a pinnacle of expertise. They’re people, their fellow human beings.

[00:20:27]
Vanessa Barrett: Yes, that’s right. And they’re just kind of winging it. Look, you can really tell they’re winging it. It’s always pretty funny the stuff that happens on there. We’re actually, we’re about to try that.

[00:20:36]
Ben Newsome: Yeah, right, cool.

[00:20:36]
Vanessa Barrett: It’s on the cards to get some of our scientists just doing some spontaneous kind of interviews from where they’re working or out in the field.

[00:20:44]
Ben Newsome: And that often talked about in classroom about being authentic. Authenticity is an issue and what comes with that is showing everything, warts and all.

[00:20:53]
Vanessa Barrett: It’s true, because for kids as well, I don’t know Ben what school experience got you on the career that you’re in now, but I know for myself, I can distinctly remember meeting scientists as a school child.

[00:21:06]
Vanessa Barrett: And they’re just normal people, a mixture of different backgrounds, genders, ages. Normal people being normal and I just remember that. I remember them and I remember thinking, oh wow, I would love to do what you do and it’s obviously accessible to anyone.

[00:21:28]
Vanessa Barrett: You have to create those opportunities for kids to see people who they can relate to, who they think they could be, and what better way to do that than in person. And also, that local element. You’ve heard me Ben complain before about when we always pay all this money to bring people from overseas to tour around doing science talks and this is a big thing. Oh, if they’re from America or if they’re from England, they must be so great.

[00:21:55]
Vanessa Barrett: I’m just so dead against it, because I really feel like we have all the talent we need in this country and we have to show kids that Australians are doing all of those things. We’re represented at the top of science in every field. And we have to promote our own people.

[00:22:12]
Vanessa Barrett: So it’s exactly the same in a local area. I love the Scientists in Schools programme, which we participate in because you’re just drawing local scientists into schools. Giving kids that chance to meet them.

[00:22:25]
Ben Newsome: One of the best sessions we’ve done is so simply like we might have run a workshop on geology or whatever it is we’re doing within the school, is when the teachers have asked us, hey, can you spend half an hour and we’ll do a breakout session with the grade. And we’ll just have a chat. And having a chat was great.

[00:22:39]
Vanessa Barrett: Best, exactly. And everyone has this thing they do when they’re on stage where they kind of change. Like we’ve all got our teacher voice or our stage voice or our podcast voice.

[00:22:47]
Ben Newsome: Podcast voice or whatever it is you’re doing.

[00:22:49]
Vanessa Barrett: Exactly. But when you’re just talking to kids, relaxed, in a relaxed setting, that’s when the engagement and connection happens.

[00:22:59]
Ben Newsome: I guess obviously on the flip side, if you’re not talking that way, obviously it’s going to be a real bad time on stage, no one’s connecting with you whatsoever. Actually, that just brings up the point like whether it’s in a classroom, on a stage, any sort of event or venue. Have you ever just seen you just see the train coming, you could see that this class is going bad and it’s going bad real fast.

[00:23:21]
Vanessa Barrett: Oh, so many times, Ben.

[00:23:22]
Ben Newsome: I mean I’m always curious about this, and people have listened to these previous episodes. I always ask something around this question because I think we learn a lot from failure and actually acknowledging it. What have you seen happen where you go, you know what, not going down that road again and this is why, etcetera?

[00:23:40]
Vanessa Barrett: Look, we’ve all been there. We’ve all felt that rising panic when you’ve sort of lost control. And sometimes you think you feel worse because it’s your fault, because you think maybe I didn’t prepare well or I’ve turned up late or I’ve left something in the car. So when it’s your fault, you just feel like, oh, how have I allowed this to happen?

[00:24:01]
Vanessa Barrett: There was something that happened that was like a career turning point last year, which was the big event we organised at the Australian Botanic Garden for Science Week was called Jurassic Garden. You know, I learned so much from that event. I dragged about 30 of our scientists out and set them up on little tables with all of their stuff to talk to kids about what they do.

[00:24:24]
Vanessa Barrett: And on the other hand, there was another range of activities including science toys and dinosaurs and things for kids to do. They literally all filled themselves up with sugar, ran around like crazy things, chasing dinosaurs and making fossils and watching things explode.

[00:24:41]
Vanessa Barrett: Then they came over to my group of introverted scientists who had never done a public engagement activity in their lives, had made no effort to make their tables interesting or engaging or accessible.

[00:24:53]
Vanessa Barrett: Literally some of the things were up so high the kids couldn’t even reach. The microscopes were not designed for kids. It was just a disaster waiting to happen and I hadn’t realised how much I should have intervened beforehand to prepare them and make sure they had cool stuff that the kids could relate to.

[00:25:08]
Ben Newsome: Yeah.

[00:25:11]
Vanessa Barrett: One of the scientists told me this really hilarious story. He’s a liverwort expert, so works with these ancient plants that are really small and hard to see and they don’t have flowers or anything. He had them all laid out on this table and this kid came along and just looked at him and pointed to them all along the table and then he said, boring.

[00:25:36]
Ben Newsome: Oh, boom.

[00:25:38]
Vanessa Barrett: The guy acted it out for me later, after the event had finished and then told me, I’m never doing this again.

[00:25:48]
Ben Newsome: Wow.

[00:25:49]
Vanessa Barrett: And I got all these emails from them saying, we’re not kids entertainers. How could you make us feel like that? No one spoke to us all day even though there was 5,000 people at the event. We felt like idiots. We put a lot of time and effort into our tables. We’d set up all this stuff and no one looked at it.

[00:26:09]
Vanessa Barrett: You know, I’m still recovering from that because I thought I’ve done this for so long. I’m so good at this. I got you the numbers. Why aren’t you happy?

[00:26:18]
Ben Newsome: Yeah, yeah.

[00:26:18]
Vanessa Barrett: But I had to learn and be humble and apologise to them first of all, which I did. And a lot of grovelling and a lot of time thinking, because they all got together as well the next day and all debriefed and really built up their cases, what a disaster it had been, which is so funny because it’s not how everyone else saw it. Everyone else thought it was a great day.

[00:26:43]
Vanessa Barrett: So for this year, I’ve had to approach it completely differently. And realise it’s my job to prepare them, help them set up their activities, even set expectations for the public and for the scientists about how this is going to go.

[00:26:59]
Vanessa Barrett: And then also realise that some scientists are just not cut out for this. They don’t have to do it. They shouldn’t have to do it. If it’s so uncomfortable and awful, there’s other things they can do.

[00:27:13]
Ben Newsome: There’s so much to learn from that. And actually one of the reasons why I wanted to get into this podcast, because that’s the thing that really grabs people’s attention is just because you can do everything perfectly. Sometimes when someone fails in something, they just stop and that’s it, or they only do it once. Be able to get up, dust yourself off, slight tweak, what they call, I think they call it in business a pivot. Pivot and go again.

[00:27:34]
Vanessa Barrett: It’s hard though, isn’t it? Because I tell you what, after last year, a couple of staff left as a result of that event.

[00:27:41]
Ben Newsome: Really?

[00:27:41]
Vanessa Barrett: Because the fallout, we all suffered. We got complaints on Facebook, all sorts of complaints. People didn’t get to come. We got complaints from staff. It kind of felt like, why are we doing this? Everyone’s upset with us, and we’re just trying to put on a fun science event for kids.

[00:27:59]
Vanessa Barrett: But the weird thing is that the federal government funded it last year, this year we’re getting some state government money. Everyone from the external people all wanted it to happen again. I was like, no, I’m not doing that to myself initially, but enough months have passed. The pain has subsided.

[00:28:22]
Ben Newsome: The wounds are healed a little bit and you’re ready to go.

[00:28:25]
Vanessa Barrett: But also, the funny thing is when I went to talk to the scientists about it again, I thought they’d all be like, no. But they’ve obviously had time to think about it as well.

[00:28:35]
Ben Newsome: Well, they’re bright people.

[00:28:36]
Vanessa Barrett: Yeah, they’re super bright people. They really do know that they need to get their work out there. They’ve also had time to get to know me and know that I wasn’t trying to set them up for failure. Because I suppose that’s what it looked like.

[00:28:49]
Vanessa Barrett: It looked like I put them next to all these super entertaining expensive kids activities and designed the whole thing that way. Look, we’re going to try again. And it’s in August this year, and we’re going to do it in a way which we’ve thought about carefully, which is we’re going to actually have a day for the scientists and a separate day for the crazy family events. And just do it separately.

[00:29:14]
Vanessa Barrett: There’s nothing wrong with that.

[00:29:15]
Ben Newsome: That’s right.

[00:29:15]
Vanessa Barrett: I’ve just accepted there’s two audiences. And there’s two groups. And they don’t have to be on the same day. And why fight it?

[00:29:26]
Ben Newsome: Makes sense. And that way both audiences are happy, both presenter types are happy. It’s not just being tenacious. It’s about working out what will work and what won’t.

[00:29:35]
Vanessa Barrett: And I’ve effectively doubled the number of people who can come because now we have two days, two lots of 2,000 parking spots.

[00:29:44]
Ben Newsome: Out of the ashes.

[00:29:45]
Vanessa Barrett: Well, it wasn’t that bad. It was a fantastic event. I must say I was at Jurassic Park and obviously we’re doing the Wizbang fun stuff. And of course we had a fantastic day. I can completely imagine if you were sitting there next to giant bubbles and slime and all this cool stuff and you’re showing liverworts.

[00:30:03]
Vanessa Barrett: It’s a little hard and to all the liverwort experts out there, I really do respect what you guys do. It’s just a real, it’s a tough gig. I mean, you know, I’ve been in these situations. You walk in and you know full well this is going to be a tough gig.

[00:30:14]
Ben Newsome: Part of our role at Fizzics not just doing school programmes, we do kid’s science parties and there are times we’ve walked in and we’re about to do some science experiments, which we think are fairly good. We brought liquid nitrogen and all this stuff. It’s all going to be fine. And then you’re competing next to a jumping castle. And what do you do? You got this big bright colourful loud thing.

[00:30:32]
Vanessa Barrett: And the kids are running around the back garden. The parents are not at all interested. And it’s all down to you to try and get them to come and listen to what you’re doing. Yeah, I just hearing you say that, Ben, I get that sinking feeling in my stomach.

[00:30:45]
Ben Newsome: You know it when you walk in and actually teachers, presenters, because we do this on a daily basis, we really know when we’ve walked into a storm. It just happens.

[00:30:53]
Vanessa Barrett: You really do. And it never gets easier.

[00:30:55]
Ben Newsome: Yeah, yeah. Though, flipping on its head, sometimes it’s like, this has been set up well and you might have mis-pitched, mis-run it.

[00:31:02]
Vanessa Barrett: Yeah, well, that’s true as well. And there’s nothing wrong with going, you know what, I don’t think these kids are going to sit through the 10 experiments I had planned. I’m just going to change it all and just maybe do three of the best.

[00:31:14]
Ben Newsome: Oh, see that’s classroom 101. Be fluid. Work with the people. If they’re not interested, jeez.

[00:31:18]
Vanessa Barrett: Don’t force it. When you’re younger, you think you have to. You think you’ve got this obligation to get through a certain amount of information. And it’s funny because that’s what I’ve noticed the scientists I work with are like, they feel like they’ve failed if they haven’t explained the technical information that they set out to explain.

[00:31:35]
Ben Newsome: Yeah, got it.

[00:31:35]
Vanessa Barrett: And I said to them, you need to just stop putting that pressure on yourself that every opportunity needs to be we’ve just learned three things. Like, just the fact that they met you. Just the fact, maybe the kid just learned to use a microscope.

[00:31:51]
Ben Newsome: A weird thought bubble came to my head. I know for a fact now what I do know now is that when I was a kid about seven years old in Townsville, I know that I was exposed to a science party. I know I was because I still have weird, maybe they weren’t meant to exist, I don’t know.

[00:32:09]
Ben Newsome: But I know that what I had seen, looking back at it was someone had frozen a squash ball with liquid nitrogen and thrown it against the wall, and it had shattered. And of course it’s the worst thing to do, by the way, because if you do that, shards of hard things that are very cold are going to fly at your audience and that’s a bad thing.

[00:32:22]
Ben Newsome: But I know that this has occurred because I still distinctly remember picking up said shard of very cold minus 196 degree rubber and looking at my hand going, oh my god, you just shattered a squash ball. And I know to this day that that’s what actually happened, that that was the experiment I’d seen. I remember nothing else.

[00:32:39]
Ben Newsome: Jeez, I was seven years old. So that’s the thing, like the take home can be much less. I mean, a lot of experienced teachers know that a lesson may only get 10 to 15% of anything to a kid sometimes.

[00:32:51]
Vanessa Barrett: Yeah, we just need to relax a little bit more and realise the different forms in which the impressions are made.

[00:32:59]
Ben Newsome: Yeah, that’s it.

[00:32:59]
Vanessa Barrett: And the person a lot of the time.

[00:33:02]
Ben Newsome: Oh yeah, and it’s often what you don’t say that matters.

[00:33:05]
Vanessa Barrett: Yeah, yeah. That’s right. And like we all know for ourselves sitting through lectures or whatever, how much you absorb and how much you care by the end. And sometimes it might be better just to stop and let them chat to you or ask questions and you know, kind of stop with that one-way traffic of information going forward to the kids.

[00:33:26]
Ben Newsome: So if you had someone who was just about to graduate university, about to start their science teaching career, or working in a museum, what sort of advice would you give them if you had to give them one?

[00:33:36]
Vanessa Barrett: Well, I guess this draws back to the beginning of this whole discussion because I didn’t know anything about this industry or what opportunities there were for me. So what I would say now to anyone who was back there like I was, just finishing uni or whatever, is that you’ve got such an amazing career ahead of you and so many opportunities.

[00:34:00]
Vanessa Barrett: And just to sort of seize the day because I think you just get so obsessed worrying about am I going to get a job or what am I going to do or where’s this going to take me? You really don’t need to worry about it.

[00:34:11]
Vanessa Barrett: If you’re a dedicated, passionate person in this industry, there are going to be so many amazing things for you to do, places for you to work, people for you to meet, opportunities for you to use your talents. I suppose I’d probably just say not to worry about it so much and let it happen.

[00:34:30]
Ben Newsome: Don’t worry, be happy.

[00:34:32]
Vanessa Barrett: Did you really just quote Bobby McFerrin?

[00:34:35]
Ben Newsome: I was thinking about it. Believe me. In one of our previous episodes, Kris Kross Jump came up. I’m glad that we got Bobby McFerrin.

[00:34:43]
Vanessa Barrett: I’m glad that we got Bobby McFerrin.

[00:34:44]
Ben Newsome: Oh yeah, why not. So, look, thank you very much for coming along. Now, obviously, it’d be great if people want to connect with you and find out more about what you do and things like that. How can they get in touch?

[00:34:57]
Vanessa Barrett: Oh, well, I’m on LinkedIn. I know that’s a bit of a nerdy thing to say, but I’m on LinkedIn. I think I’m one of the only ones on there that’s doing this job. So yeah, definitely find me on there. I think that’s probably the best way.

[00:35:08]
Ben Newsome: Sure. That’s fantastic. And look, what we’ll do is we’ll put that link on the show notes as well, so you can find it. But look, Vanessa Barrett, thank you very much for coming along and don’t worry, be happy.

[00:35:17]
Vanessa Barrett: Thanks, Ben.

[00:35:18]
Ben Newsome: See you later.

[00:35:20]
Announcer: This is the FizzicsEd podcast. We’re all about science, EdTech and more. To see 100 fun free experiments you can do with your class, go to fizzicseducation.com.au. That’s Fizzics spelled F. I. Z. Z. I. C. S. and click 100 Free Experiments.

[00:35:38]
Ben Newsome: Isn’t Vanessa just so down to earth? I mean, obviously, I’ve known her for years. She’s a very good friend of mine. However, the ability just to say how things are, whether they went well or didn’t go well, it’s such a skill and, you know, it’s just humbling that people can just say things like that and learn from their experiences.

[00:35:58]
Ben Newsome: I was so happy to have her on the podcast and I hope you got a lot out of this. From this, I’d like to go into the top three learnings I had from this interview and no doubt you would have more to go through this as well. But here are my three at least I took away straight away.

[00:36:13]
Ben Newsome: So firstly, don’t rest on your reputation. It’s so easy to get blinded by a shining logo that this is the most important place to visit, the most important place that does outreach or does whatever, whatever the marketing spiel might be.

[00:36:30]
Ben Newsome: Speak with anyone that’s teaching science. It doesn’t have to be a major museum, zoo, aquarium or whatever. There are fantastic educators in high schools, schools, preschools, who are doing unbelievably good stuff. They just haven’t got a massive marketing brand behind them.

[00:36:47]
Ben Newsome: Having said that, of course, there’s brilliant people within the museum that Vanessa visited over in the UK. But like she said, the own museum that she was working with in Sydney was doing fantastic stuff too. So, the old adage of, you know, you’re only as good as your last show. It’s certainly something that we’ve always thought about when we present our presentations, the audience and your own class students will appreciate that as well if you go that way.

[00:37:13]
Ben Newsome: My second tip for this is work with your stakeholders. Now wasn’t Vanessa so frank about how things just didn’t go perfectly to plan with a major event that she ran in August in 2016. However, picked herself up, dusted herself off, and said, let’s just make it bigger and brighter for next year.

[00:37:32]
Ben Newsome: And she certainly has done a fantastic job to start working with her stakeholders, with her scientists in her organisation to get things going. Now, of course, listeners here who are educators in a school might be thinking, oh my gosh, is this for me? Do I open ourselves up to a potential failure?

[00:37:48]
Ben Newsome: It doesn’t necessarily have to be that bad. Just start slowly and just work out what your people who are getting involved in your event might be able to do, what are their fears, what are their concerns, and try to really come up with a plan that will at least mitigate most of these issues. And to be honest, most people learn from experience anyway.

[00:38:07]
Ben Newsome: And finally, we couldn’t have with especially at the end of this, don’t worry, be happy. I mean, isn’t that just a classic way we should be regardless. But it means there are, trying to track your career path. I mean so many people have the one-year plan, the two-year plan, the five-year plan. I’ve spoken with so many company directors and major managers of organisations and principals, and you ask them, what are their plans?

[00:38:30]
Ben Newsome: Some of them are that busy that if it’s just the next year would be enough. Thank you very much. I think the idea of a vague idea where you want to go is a good thing because, you know, that allows you to construct some ideas about how you might teach a particular topic or create a particular project.

[00:38:46]
Ben Newsome: Obviously, that’s a good thing to help guide you. Be flexible enough to just take it as it comes. And certainly, don’t worry, be happy is a very good motto and it’s a great 80s song as well. But certainly, if you can within your organisation, sort of just chill out a little bit, things will work as they come along. It can be a good thing for yourself and frankly, for your blood pressure as well.

[00:39:09]
Announcer: Thanks for listening to the FizzicsEd podcast. Love your science? We do too. Here’s this episode’s education tip of the week. Grab your pencil and get ready to make some notes.

[00:39:20]
Ben Newsome: So here’s a quick tip you can implement straight away in your classroom. Now, when I mean quick, I mean properly quick. In this case, I’m talking about a science meme. Now, just first up, what’s a meme? It’s an image. It’s a picture. It’s a cartoon. It’s some photo from a movie or a still capture at least, which people type stuff over the top of.

[00:39:41]
Ben Newsome: I had students tell me, maybe it’s a mimmy. They were really adamant it was mimmy and I thought it was meme and now I’m confused. But I’m going to call it meme. No doubt you’ve seen them on social media like Facebook and Twitter and that type of thing, where you see this image and someone’s typed over the top of it.

[00:39:58]
Ben Newsome: And why would you use it in a classroom? So, firstly, I encourage you to go on to Meme Generator or Meme Creator or ImageChef. There’s a number of free platforms where they’ve got a whole bunch of stock images, which you can type your titles over the top of the images and then use them in your classroom.

[00:40:16]
Ben Newsome: Why would you do this? So, for example, if you had this set up on your interactive whiteboard or on your data projector, you could have a simple meme, so again, just a picture with some typing over it, which will convey the message incredibly quickly.

[00:40:31]
Ben Newsome: For example, there’s a classic meme of a still out of Lord of the Rings. I think it’s Boromir, sort of holding his fingers, looking very, very thoughtful and, you know, prophetic almost. And one does not simply forget that today is lab day. Is a simple way to start off your lesson.

[00:40:48]
Ben Newsome: Or if you want to go a little bit further, you could say there’s another one which is Batman and Robin, so cartoon Batman and Robin. Looks like a 60s cartoon by the look of the way the cartoon’s done. In this case, Batman’s kind of slapping Robin.

[00:41:04]
Ben Newsome: So Robin wakes up to himself. But in this case, Robin does need to wake up to himself because he says, I’ll just taste a little sample of this to see what it… and then clearly Batman’s slapped him and he says, never eat anything in the lab.

[00:41:17]
Ben Newsome: So there’s a lab safety meme just there. Or you could get a little bit passive-aggressive and you could have an image from The Matrix where Morpheus says, what if I told you the answers you seek are in the lab instructions.

[00:41:31]
Ben Newsome: Look, you can have a bit of play with this. I mean, obviously, it’s a bit of fun. And look, where you have fun, you have kids smiling. When kids are smiling, they’re engaged. So there’s a quick tip.

[00:41:41]
Ben Newsome: Go on to ImageChef, go on to Meme Generator, Meme Creator, whatever platform that you can find memes to be created on. Create a quick account, they are genuinely free. And within 30 seconds, 1 minute tops, you can quickly just put a caption over the top of an image that you think represents what you want to discuss and shove it on your classroom and see what kids think. Try it out.

[00:42:04]
Announcer: This is the FizzicsEd podcast. We’re excited about science. Grab a copy of our new book, Be Amazing: How to Teach Science the Way Primary Kids Love, from our website. Just search Be Amazing book. It’s available in hard copy and ebook. Go to fizzicseducation.com.au. That’s Fizzics spelt F. I. Z. Z. I. C. S.

[00:42:27]
Ben Newsome: Yes, and within that book there’s quite a bit of information that you can use in your classroom for sure. And look, one of these things that can certainly be useful in your classroom is making a little bit of a mess.

[00:42:39]
Ben Newsome: In a past episode, we were talking with Maddy Scott Jones and Luca Perry from the Education Changemakers and Maddy had a bit of a thought around, well, how kids just love to get messy and why this is actually somewhat useful in your classroom.

[00:42:51]
Maddy Scott Jones: It’d have to be something that would make a lot of mess, I think. I can’t think of a particular example. Making lots of slime, hey. But yeah, just, you know, I think that it holds us back sometimes from going out and doing something really wild and exciting is just thinking about how much clearing up there’s going to be afterwards.

[00:43:10]
Maddy Scott Jones: But we really need to sort of break through that barrier because you’ve got, you know, essentially 30 little hands, or 60 hands that can help you clean up afterwards as well.

[00:43:21]
Ben Newsome: Yeah, absolutely. Come on, make a mess. Look, it’s not that bad. I know that there might be some people shuddering as you walk the dog or sitting in the car or however you listen to this podcast.

[00:43:32]
Ben Newsome: Look, making a mess in the classroom, there is some value to it. It’s not restrictive. I would just suggest with your lessons, definitely see if you can build in some time that kids can clean up. Don’t just yourselves, or a lab assistant, or someone else has to clean up.

[00:43:46]
Ben Newsome: There is learning in this. I mean, to run a decent science lab, you need to clean up after yourselves. Not only is it a good thing for your co-workers, it’s also a safety issue. Kids need to learn, and the earlier they learn, the better they can do this.

[00:43:58]
Ben Newsome: I definitely encourage you to check out that recent episode. And well, get a little messy.

[00:44:04]
Announcer: Thanks for listening to the FizzicsEd podcast. Sign up now for our fortnightly email newsletter. It’s loaded with details on new experiments you can do, STEM teaching articles, new gadgets, exclusive offers and upcoming events. Go to fizzicseducation.com.au. Scroll to the bottom and add your email.

[00:44:23]
Ben Newsome: And this brings us again to yet another episode of the FizzicsEd podcast. Look, I’d love you to connect with us. Jump on the website. Yes, we constantly talk about the website, but it’s built there to support you.

[00:44:33]
Ben Newsome: We are well over 10 years old now and the content that’s on that site is built for educators to genuinely get good science running in their classrooms, and honestly, we do our best so that kids perform well.

[00:44:45]
Ben Newsome: So go to fizzicseducation, spelled F I Z Z I C S education dot com dot au, and you’ll find a heap of stuff that can help you in your teaching and if you’re in a museum presenting programmes too. So you’ll find over 100 articles in our blog on how to teach science in multiple different ways, whether you’re into drones or science apps, or science memes, or whatever it is that you’re into.

[00:45:07]
Ben Newsome: You’ll find nearly 150 science experiments which are freely available on our website as well. You can check that out in the top heading of our site.

[00:45:14]
Ben Newsome: There is that brand new book which has come out, Be Amazing, which is specifically designed for primary teachers, though we are finding a few high school teachers are using this too.

[00:45:23]
Ben Newsome: So, next week you’ll find us talking with Jackie Randles. Jackie Randles is from the Inspiring Australia group out of Australia. So if you haven’t heard of Inspiring Australia, it’s a federally funded programme to get science out into the public. So whether you’re in preschool or in a retirement home.

[00:45:39]
Ben Newsome: So Jackie Randles is the New South Wales Inspiring Australia officer and she’s got a heap of experience and connections and knowledge around who’s doing what in New South Wales and we’re talking hundreds if not thousands of festivals. So really tune in for that. And as always, may your science lessons be fun, make them informative, and please grab your students’ imagination. My name is Ben Newsome from Fizzics Education and you’ve been listening to the FizzicsEd podcast.

[00:46:07]
Announcer: You’ve been listening to another Fizzics Ed Podcast. We’re excited about science. Subscribe to us on iTunes to download the next episode as soon as it’s released. And don’t forget, for hundreds of ideas, free experiments, our new Be Amazing book and more, go to fizzicseducation.com.au. That’s physics spelled F I Z Z I C S.

Frequently Asked Questions

1. How did Vanessa Barrett transition from studying zoology to becoming a science communicator?
Vanessa initially wanted to be a vet and was deeply interested in animals. After gaining experience at a vet clinic in high school, she realised veterinary work wasn’t for her. She then pursued zoology. However, the true turning point came when she discovered jobs involving teaching kids about science, specifically a travelling rainforest show. This experience sparked her passion for science communication, leading her to pursue it as a career.

2. What challenges did Vanessa face in her role as a science communicator for the Royal Botanic Garden?
One of the primary challenges was raising the profile of the botanists and plant scientists, whose work is often complex and not immediately obvious or relevant to everyday life. There was also a perceived lack of profile for the scientific work being done at the gardens, even internally. She encountered resistance from scientists when trying to engage them directly with the public, as they found it uncomfortable and felt unprepared for such interactions.

3. What was the “Science in the Swamp” programme, and what made it successful?
“Science in the Swamp” started as an initiative to secure National Science Week grants, evolving into a free family day event in the eastern suburbs of Sydney. Its success stemmed from its inclusive format: it served as a platform for local science groups and communicators to come together, rather than focusing solely on promoting the Botanic Garden itself. This collaborative approach fostered a sense of community and attracted consistent funding and public engagement over the years.

4. What did Vanessa learn from the “Jurassic Garden” event that went awry?
The “Jurassic Garden” event involved scientists presenting their research to families who had just experienced high-energy, hands-on activities. The scientists, many of whom were introverted and inexperienced in public engagement, felt humiliated because children found their detailed presentations “boring.” Vanessa learned the critical importance of preparing scientists for public interaction, setting clear expectations for both the public and the presenters, and providing engaging activities. She also realised that not all scientists are suited for direct public engagement, and that’s perfectly acceptable.

5. What advice does Vanessa have for aspiring science communicators or educators?
Vanessa advises them not to worry excessively about finding a job or charting a precise career path. She believes that if one is dedicated and passionate about science communication, numerous opportunities will naturally arise. She stresses the importance of seizing these opportunities and being open to diverse experiences, rather than feeling confined by rigid expectations or predefined roles.

Extra thought ideas to consider

1. The importance of understanding your audience’s expectations: Vanessa’s experience at the Natural History Museum in London, where visitors shunned a modern exhibition for traditional displays, and her “Jurassic Garden” event, highlight a crucial lesson. What strategies can organisations and educators use to truly understand and cater to their audience’s existing expectations and interests, rather than imposing new formats or content?

2. Balancing authenticity with preparation in science communication: Vanessa realised that forcing scientists into public-facing roles without adequate preparation or a genuine inclination was counterproductive. This raises the question of how to strike a balance between encouraging authenticity (showing scientists as “normal people”) and providing the necessary skills and support to ensure effective and positive engagement for both the scientists and the public. When is it acceptable, or even preferable, for an expert to *not* be the primary communicator?

3. The evolving role of technology in science education and engagement: Vanessa touches on how today’s kids use technology to create their own science content (podcasts, videos, e-books) and how social media platforms like Periscope (now often integrated into other platforms) or Facebook Live can be powerful, low-resource tools for engagement. How can educational institutions and individual educators better leverage these dynamic, student-friendly technologies to foster interest in science, rather than relying solely on traditional methods, especially when resources are limited?