Audio Transcript

Published: 19 June 2017
APA 7 Citation: Newsome, B. (Host). (2017, June 19). National Indigenous Science Education Program (NISEP) [Audio podcast transcript]. Fizzics Education. https://www.fizzicseducation.com.au/podcast/fizzicsed/national-indigenous-science-education-program-nisep/

Ben Newsome CF is the recipient of the 2023 UTS Chancellor’s Award for Excellence and a Churchill Fellow. He is a global leader in science communication and the founder of Fizzics Education.

[00:00:00]
Announcer: You’re listening to the Fizzics Ed Podcast. For hundreds of ideas, free experiments and more, go to fizzicseducation.com.au. And now, here’s your host, Ben Newsome.

[00:00:17]
Ben Newsome: Sometimes in your line of work you just come across a problem that you just have to try to solve. And our next two guests, Joanne Jamie and Emma Barnes from the National Indigenous Science Education Programme, certainly are those type of people. These people are fantastic biochemists working out of Macquarie University. However, in their studies with plants up in Northern New South Wales, they were working with Indigenous elders who brought up a problem which they really wanted people to solve: how to get their youth back into education and back into the sciences. And guess what? They’re doing something about it.

[00:00:55]
Ben Newsome: This is the FizzicsEd podcast. My name is Ben Newsome from Fizzics Education, and I’m really excited to bring Joanne Jamie and Emma Barnes from Macquarie University to you, because they have been working so hard with Indigenous youth in Northern New South Wales and Western Sydney to get them really pumped about science education. You really should check them out, to be honest. Just type in NISEP, N-I-S-E-P, into Google and you will find them.

[00:01:22]
Ben Newsome: So Joanne Jamie, she’s the Associate Professor of Chemistry at Macquarie University. She is also the co-director of the National Indigenous Science Education Programme, and works alongside Emma Barnes who we also speak with. She’s a postdoctoral fellow at the Indigenous Bioresources Research Group at Macquarie University as well. They’ve got a lot to offer. In this podcast they discuss how they’ve engaged students in sciences with the help of Aboriginal elders in their communities. What works for the students? What doesn’t work for the students? What works for the schools? What doesn’t work for the schools? I hope you get a lot out of this and consider, how can you actually work with your own communities to get elders into your classroom and getting kids really engaged in potentially a topic they may not really want to get into? NISEP has done a fantastic job in getting students really engaged in science. And it’s certainly a model that other universities could potentially consider for their own outreach.

[00:02:18]
Announcer: You’re listening to the FizzicsEd podcast. Why don’t you book us for a science show or workshop in your school? We love seeing students get excited about science, and you will too. Go to fizzicseducation.com.au and click on schools for more info.

[00:02:35]
Ben Newsome: Okay, so Joanne, Emma, welcome to the Fizzics Education podcast. How are you doing?

[00:02:40]
A/Prof Joanne Jamie: Doing well.

[00:02:41]
Dr Emma Barnes: Good, thanks.

[00:02:42]
Ben Newsome: Thanks very much for taking your time in the middle of the day. I know that it’s the start of when the rubber hits the road for university teaching, you’ve got a lot on your plate right now.

[00:02:49]
A/Prof Joanne Jamie: Yes, you’ve just walked past all of my paperwork there.

[00:02:53]
Ben Newsome: Yeah, I was actually looking around at the paperwork and we’ve got DNA models, ion models, and all sorts of stuff. Just really quickly we’re at Macquarie University and Joanne, Emma, tell us what you do.

[00:03:05]
A/Prof Joanne Jamie: Okay, well, I’ll start. We’re both at Macquarie University in Sydney. And I’m a Chemistry academic. So I teach and research in particularly chemistry that’s referred to as biological organic and medicinal chemistry. And I also co-direct what’s known as the Indigenous Bioresources Research Group, which is about helping to understand bush medicines from a scientific point of view. And I also co-direct the National Indigenous Science Education Programme or NISEP.

[00:03:35]
Ben Newsome: So you’re saying you’ve got lots of time on your plate, you’re okay. All right. Gotcha. Emma, what do you do?

[00:03:41]
Dr Emma Barnes: Well, that’s a complicated question. I’m what’s known as an early career research fellow here at Macquarie University. That means I’ve finished my PhD. I’m a natural products chemist by training, so I help Joanne in researching the bush medicines, looking for new pharmaceuticals and health care products. But I’m also the manager for NISEP, for the National Indigenous Science Education Programme.

[00:04:05]
Ben Newsome: Which is what we’re chatting about. That’s it. Just for those people who aren’t aware, I’ve run into these two before, as you probably can tell we’re reasonably friendly as it is. NISEP, National Indigenous Science Education Programme has done a fantastic job with working with Indigenous people in Northern New South Wales, Western Sydney and whatnot. And I know that a lot of listeners here are teachers and educators and all the rest, and I thought you’d really like to hear about the work that’s been done with Aboriginal elders and their community and beyond, with an idea of how can you frame that around your own classrooms. So Joanne, tell us more about NISEP. What does it do?

[00:04:40]
A/Prof Joanne Jamie: Fundamentally, NISEP uses science to help engage Indigenous youth and give them motivation, confidence, leadership skills, so they want to do successfully in their high school studies and also so that they can consider further education opportunities. And it’s a consortium with academics such as myself, but also with school staff and with Aboriginal elders. And we’re fortunate to have this amazing network as part of the NISEP partnership.

[00:05:12]
Ben Newsome: Where did this come from? Obviously you’re busy enough as an academic. You’ve got enough stuff on your plate. I know what I’ll do. I’m going to start an education programme on top of my other education role, just because I can.

[00:05:22]
A/Prof Joanne Jamie: In my opinion, it’s a really lovely story as to how it happened. As I mentioned, as my research I do bush medicines research and I do that with Aboriginal elders. And just over a decade ago, I headed off to Northern New South Wales to meet up with the Yaegl elders who I’ve worked with to talk about our bush medicines research. And as part of that, we showed some little science activities and it got them talking about the education of their youth. And they actually were very concerned, and this was at the stage that closing the gap wasn’t even talked about. And they said to me and my colleagues, can you help us, can you help us get our youth wanting to complete school and wanting to make a success of themselves? And can you do that by using science through your experiences and help make them leaders?

[00:06:16]
A/Prof Joanne Jamie: To be honest, I didn’t understand how dire the problem was, how big a gap there was, and I just had to make a difference. And from that point, I and my colleagues said, we’re going to do this. We’re going to help develop these leadership skills. We’re going to use science to do so. To be honest, we didn’t know what we were in for. And it became a little bit bigger than what we expected, but it was something that we felt so passionate about. But I’ve been very fortunate. I’ve been able to incorporate my own university students into the programme, so they’re great mentors and great students to be a part of all of our programme. And I’ve incorporated it into my teaching, research and outreach. But I do it because I’ve actually seen us make tangible differences with the youth that we work with. And we work with them throughout the entirety of their high school years.

[00:07:09]
Ben Newsome: And we got to work together a couple of years ago on a programme with the Sydney Olympic Park, the GWS Giants, the AFL team, and some kids out of Western Sydney and up in Casino. And they were fantastic. And there were a couple of kids that really shone out of that. It was fantastic. So, Emma, how did you get yourself into this? How did you sort of get roped into it?

[00:07:27]
Dr Emma Barnes: I was a little bit roped into it, I guess. Well, the story actually went that I’d moved over to Germany to get a job, basically, as most young scientists unfortunately do. And my partner and I decided we wanted to come back to Australia and I knew that Joanne was doing bush medicines research. So my similar area. And I basically arrived back from Germany, and about a week later I went to my first NISEP event because Joanne was like, you might like this.

[00:07:54]
Ben Newsome: What was the event? What happened?

[00:07:55]
Dr Emma Barnes: That was actually the Australian Museum’s Science Festival. So I was just interacting with our university student volunteers and doing the shows for primary school students. But went on to really become involved because I’m actually originally from Casino, which is in Northern New South Wales, which is actually one of our main partner communities. Actually graduated from high school the year before NISEP started there, unfortunately.

[00:08:20]
Ben Newsome: You were nearly involved.

[00:08:21]
Dr Emma Barnes: Yeah, just nearly involved. But what I really love is that I get this opportunity to really directly help out with my home community. I grew up on a farm there, so I have an understanding of what it’s like to move away from home and to go to university. So I love getting to chat with the students and give them that advice too.

[00:08:39]
Ben Newsome: So imagine you’ve got some students, you’ve just connected with a brand new community and you’ve been working with the elders to get something up and running. And so the first event arrives. I don’t know, whether in Western New South Wales or maybe even Western Australia. What’s the very first connection to students like? What do you talk about before you get into all the science stuff? What does an event look like?

[00:08:58]
A/Prof Joanne Jamie: Well, our first event with each new school or community is that we go to that school and through working with the teachers and support staff, they identify students that they would like as leaders. And in this respect, they choose for us, obviously keen students, those that think science is fun, but they also choose students that are not that engaged or students that are shy, for example, because our desire is to get each child to recognise their potential and really give them that boost needed.

[00:09:36]
A/Prof Joanne Jamie: So the start is, we get to the school, we have the gear, and we get a whole bunch of kids that turn up and we introduce them, we make them feel comfortable. We get them to be NISEP leaders, nice T-shirt, etc. And we get them really to recognise that this is a great opportunity, make them feel welcome and we train them in a very informal environment, including with our own university students as well, because it’s a lovely role model effect. The students that we’re working with as leaders, they’re typically year eight upwards. And they’re about to show their leadership skills in all sorts of fun science to all the year seven kids and potentially younger kids. So they’re role models to those younger kids. And in turn, they’re working with our university students who are role models for them.

[00:10:25]
A/Prof Joanne Jamie: We find there’s an amazing buzz. The students are intrigued, uncertain. Some want to stand in a corner and not get involved, but they actually do get involved very quickly, others are really excited. So it’s a real mix, but it’s just a lovely thing to be a part of. And the reality is, we always find within a very short period of time, they’re on top of the activities. They’re in charge. We become their glorified slaves and then just clean up the bubble bath from the blowing bubbles dry ice experiment, for example. But yeah, they actually very quickly get in charge and feel confident. And so there’s this buzz, and then throughout the day, you just get so excited as you see them transforming. And it’s just beautiful.

[00:11:16]
Ben Newsome: What I love about it is that you’re not just looking at the extroverts. The kids who are right in the middle of the room. Introspective kids know quite a lot, just keep it to themselves. And quite often, within any science faculty you will have the extroverts, but you will have introverts as well who work just as well. And you need both types of thinking in any faculty to work together. Fantastic. So, it got set up a couple of years ago now. You’ve got a whole lot much more going on. I know one festival which you’ll be involved with later this year is around Redfern. Tell the listeners about that.

[00:11:44]
A/Prof Joanne Jamie: Okay, this event which Emma is coordinating is our grandest event of the year. So the Indigenous Science Experience at Redfern, we have a community open day that’s on August 20. So it’s open to everyone and free to everyone. And this is a really lovely opportunity where we showcase Indigenous and Western science. And what’s really special to us is it has the Aboriginal elders that are our NISEP partners there talking about so much of their wonderful scientific and cultural knowledge. So bush foods and bush medicines and Aboriginal tool making, the science of ochre amongst many other things. And it also has our NISEP student leaders from the schools acting as leaders and showcasing their wonderful skills to the entire public. So, this is an event that, look, if you’re in Sydney, come along. It’s an amazing opportunity to be a part of. And we’re really excited about it because also it’s with many of our partners. And including such groups as Fizzics Education and others as well.

[00:12:51]
Ben Newsome: Stop it.

[00:12:52]
A/Prof Joanne Jamie: No.

[00:12:53]
Ben Newsome: Yeah, certainly we’re just one of many. And the thing is there’s so much going on with this. It’s almost hard to pick out what is the most stand-out activity, which is the draw card that you know that if you put stuff out on tables, kids will flock to it and it’s really hard to beat them away, to move them away from it.

[00:13:09]
Dr Emma Barnes: I’m thinking making the slime and the dry ice.

[00:13:12]
Ben Newsome: Have slime and get kids.

[00:13:14]
Dr Emma Barnes: But even our elders actually draw a crowd. Just chatting. You can come and have a yarn with them about their bush medicines and knowledge.

[00:13:27]
Ben Newsome: When you come to do a school event, do you have the elders come in and have a chat with them as well?

[00:13:31]
A/Prof Joanne Jamie: So there are some events where the elders will be doing that, and some events where they don’t. We like to have a mix. NISEP is very much about showcasing the Aboriginal knowledge amongst our activities, and we do that with the elders. So we have particular events that they will particularly talk about their bush foods and bush medicines, for example. And it’s a wonderful thing to be a part of. I mean, what makes me so proud is, whilst just on 10 years ago, they actually were asking us to help their youth. They have been for quite a significant amount of the programme’s time, been also those in charge of making that change in the youth as well. And they’ve really got the confidence to do so. So we’re very proud of them.

[00:14:18]
A/Prof Joanne Jamie: We particularly have that strength with the Yaegl Aboriginal elders in Northern New South Wales who are our partners right from the start of the programme. So there are events of course where it is, yes, we’ve got the slime and the dry ice, etcetera. But to complement that with this amazing cultural knowledge is, I think something really special. And to have those elders as core to the programme is something that we’re very proud of.

[00:14:42]
Ben Newsome: Where do you think this might go? Obviously you’re busy enough as is, hard enough to try and pull more hours out of a day, but where could you see this going?

[00:14:50]
A/Prof Joanne Jamie: Well, we have established partnerships through a number of other universities. Our strongest partnership is with Charles Sturt University, but also within Queensland, we’re in the process of establishing with University of Queensland NISEP. So they can particularly look at the Southeast Queensland region. We’re very much working towards NISEP becoming a social franchise. We want it to build, not with us doing all the work, mind you, but we want it to build such that we can get university partners who then have the capacity to work with more schools and communities across the country. And particularly with the opportunity we got last year with PWC in that programme of mentoring, it’s given us a greater understanding as to how we can approach that. And I’m very fortunate that Emma’s been working a lot towards that as well. So we actually see, it’ll take time, but a sustainable programme that is across more universities, schools and communities across the country.

[00:15:51]
Ben Newsome: That programme with PWC was fantastic. We were lucky enough to be involved as well. For those people who aren’t aware there was a programme from PWC which is formerly known as Price Waterhouse Coopers, ran a programme called 21st Century Minds. And it was a great programme which had a lot of people involved across the country to deliver STEM. Just thinking about this, bringing on new people, Charles Sturt University and others as well, so they just take it like wildfire. And you’ve got not just three, four, five universities but you had this thing got a whole roll on to itself. I’m just curious, what sort of advice could you give? If it was a university in Florida, or a university in Italy who goes, you know what, we want to do this with our youth and our cultures. What if you had to start up, like literally turning the key on a programme like this? What’s some advice you could give them to consider doing that?

[00:16:38]
A/Prof Joanne Jamie: I’d say, start off with small steps. We have core activities and we also have extensions. So start off being central to the school and community. Do the activities there, get those to work well before you start making it too big. If you’re not careful, this type of programme can become quite overwhelming. We want to ensure, particularly when we’re working with groups that, well, we don’t want to promise within any of the organisations more than what we can deliver. That actually can potentially cause harm rather than good.

[00:17:29]
A/Prof Joanne Jamie: So ensure it’s well planned for the initial stages to work well and then slowly build from that. Build a strong network. Recognise that the school community, the teachers, science teachers, for example, and the support staff within the school, as well as wider community members, such as Aboriginal elders, are important to that, as well as academic staff. And within universities, recognise you have an amazing potential with your own university students. They’re an amazing resource that provide a great enthusiasm and energy and university students want to make a difference. So it’s really easy to actually have them involved, but respect what they provide in that.

[00:18:12]
Ben Newsome: Yeah, I believe there’s a big untapped potential out there right. I mean numbers alone, let alone their vibrant attitudes towards this as well. That’s fantastic. Anything you want to add to that, Emma?

[00:18:22]
Dr Emma Barnes: Only just to talk to people, basically. As Joanne said, we actually connect with our representatives across communities, so I can’t re-emphasise enough talking to the support staff in schools because they’re actually some of our main proponents. So our Indigenous tutors, for example, our Indigenous support staff that have different names in different schools, because it depends on how they’re employed within the school. But they’re the ones who often select our leaders, for example, and provide a lot of the support. They often travel to Sydney with the kids to, as their chaperones, if you like. They’re fantastic. Also our technical staff, science technical staff in schools, awesome. And it’s great to give them recognition as well because you can be connecting with the, of course you need to connect with the head science teacher and the science staff, and they need to be on board, but there’s so many people within a school system.

[00:19:15]
Ben Newsome: We’ve got a great event even tomorrow with Chifley College.

[00:19:18]
Dr Emma Barnes: Yeah.

[00:19:19]
Ben Newsome: Tell the listeners what that’s all about, what’s going on there?

[00:19:21]
Dr Emma Barnes: Yeah, so tomorrow we’re going out to the Chifley Colleges. There’s five Chifley Colleges in Western Sydney, and we do what’s called a gifted and talented day with them. This one’s about getting year 10 students together to do different science activities, to encourage them to think about doing science in years 11 and 12. So they’ll move on to the senior campuses of Chifley soon. And it’s also about exposing them to the science staff that they’re going to be interacting with, scientists from university and from companies like Fizzics, to give them a broader idea of what science is and all the fun they can have when doing science.

[00:19:56]
Ben Newsome: So clearly you’re like me, we’ve gone down this path of science and this is our thing. This is the thing we love doing. Why did you even start this is actually about you guys, just purely out of yourselves. Why did you get involved in science? I mean, you could have clearly done all sorts of things, but now you’re surrounded by boffins and interested science types.

[00:20:14]
A/Prof Joanne Jamie: As I said, I’m a chemist, and frankly, chemistry is in everything around us.

[00:20:19]
Ben Newsome: It is.

[00:20:20]
A/Prof Joanne Jamie: We’re sitting on them. We’re breathing them right now. And it’s so true in my opinion that chemistry is a central science, but to me, what I love about science is it’s every day, everything that we talk about, do, it’s got science involved in it. And the extension of that, of course, to STEM more broadly. So I love that we can explain everything, or at least work towards explaining what’s happening around us. So that fascinates me, particularly fascinated by organic chemistry and how that applies to medicinal purposes, for example. But I think also, everyone can relate to it, and it’s a great leveller. So from an engagement point of view, you can do this awesome stuff. You can do fun things that change colour, that feel interesting, that, well, you know, such as Fizzics Education goes bang and so on. And it’s all really fun and exciting to be a part of. And we get to do that as our jobs, which is really I’ve argued it’s not been a job for years. To be honest.

[00:21:26]
Ben Newsome: Just don’t tell anyone.

[00:21:28]
A/Prof Joanne Jamie: But no, I get that.

[00:21:30]
Ben Newsome: So, Emma, why did you get yourself into science? Why this?

[00:21:32]
Dr Emma Barnes: Well, I actually have this fantastic story about the fact that I hated science until I was in probably mid-year 10. And I then had a really awesome chemistry teacher who got me more interested in it. And I guess he more looked at, or could see how I was as a student, and what my likes and dislikes were and how he could engage me with chemistry. And I had a good physics teacher then, and it kind of snowballed. And that’s when I first realised that pretty much the same as Joanne, oh, this science is everywhere. It’s really interesting. I could go anywhere with this. And I could also help a lot of people if I find new solutions in science, because it’s all around us.

[00:22:11]
Ben Newsome: And that’s the thing, like that’s actually, and it’s almost coming full circle to what we’ve actually been talking about. These programmes, NISEP programmes and things like this are all about mentoring and really just getting kids to understand that it’s not just about the books. There’s more to it than that. And I completely could see how this could work. And obviously with NISEP itself grabbing kids and getting them to see that, you know, with the right role model, things can turn around so quickly. That’s fantastic. And so I guess, how would they want to get in touch, how would they get involved with NISEP and the broader community in this?

[00:22:40]
Dr Emma Barnes: In terms of getting in touch with us, probably the best way is going to our website so firstly they can find out more information about us, and that has our contact details. So that’s at nisep.org.au.

[00:22:54]
Ben Newsome: And we’ll pop it in the show notes.

[00:22:55]
Dr Emma Barnes: Yeah. And we also have our Facebook site. So if they look at Facebook under the National Indigenous Science Education Programme, they’ll then see a really great list of events that we’ve been a part of. So that can give them ideas as to what we can be involved with. In terms of actual activities, we’re always looking at our core events, such as the Indigenous Science Experience, of having people come along and participate, and then talk to us about opportunities that they may even have down the track themselves. So we’re happy to look at opportunities there. And we’re very happy to talk to universities and school community connections about future opportunities. But yeah, the website and the Facebook site are probably a great place to start.

[00:23:40]
Ben Newsome: Yeah, no worries, and we’ll pop that in the show notes like everything else. Look, lovely. Thank you very much for getting in touch with us again. I know we’ve got some programmes to run tomorrow and into the future, but look, you guys are doing a fantastic job. Much appreciated. And thanks for being on the FizzicsEd podcast.

[00:23:55]
Dr Emma Barnes: Thank you.

[00:23:56]
Ben Newsome: Well, hang on, there’s more actually. When we finished that recording, Emma and Joanne and I were just sitting down talking about what’s happened in our classrooms and all the cool stuff we’ve seen. And a story came up which I really thought we just had to just grab everyone together and start chatting again because if you ever wondered about your impact of your teaching in your classroom, this is a great story which has a great outcome. Check it out. So, welcome back again Joanne and Emma in a lot of ways. I just want to know a bit about these students. Tell me a bit more.

[00:24:28]
A/Prof Joanne Jamie: Okay. Well, as we said, a big part of what we’re doing is about letting students recognise their own potential. And one of the coolest things is actually the experience that I’ve had this year. So start of session one of university, first class, first year, for our Chemical and Biomolecular Sciences subject. And I’m standing there giving the lecture, knowing that I’m giving that lecture to Will, who I have known since year seven, from Casino High School, who is now here, a first year, doing a combined BSc, B Law student, majoring with his science in Chemical and Biomolecular Sciences.

[00:25:05]
A/Prof Joanne Jamie: And to me, seeing him from a year seven student, going throughout all of his high schooling as a NISEP leader, and now to be here at our university studying our subjects is something that I find incredibly exciting and I’m so proud of. I’m so proud of him.

[00:25:28]
Ben Newsome: That’s fantastic and that’s why we had to sit down and talk about this. That’s unreal. I’d defy to find how many lecturers and basically tertiary educators who’ve actually been able to see a kid effectively almost out of primary school, out of elementary school, just now to see them actually in the real world studying real science to leave with a qualification. That’s unreal. You obviously are still in contact?

[00:25:51]
A/Prof Joanne Jamie: Oh, yes. He’s going to be doing some of our shows here with us as well.

[00:25:55]
Ben Newsome: Oh, wow. So you’ve well and truly corrupted him.

[00:25:57]
Dr Emma Barnes: Yes.

[00:25:58]
Ben Newsome: Look, that’s an unreal story. That’s the thing. They can always be positive. They really can be. But obviously on the flip side, occasionally things can go a little bit pear-shaped too. Like when things just go just a little bit wrong and unplanned. I’m just going to, yeah, why not, let’s just go into it, let’s go down there. Have you ever been in a situation or seen a situation where you’re watching a science class is going down the wrong runway?

[00:26:23]
A/Prof Joanne Jamie: Well, no. We haven’t had it go down the wrong way. But our plans are always to meet up with our student leaders from the schools, to spend an hour training them to make sure they’re really on top of everything before they start the shows with the younger kids. The slightly outer plan is normally when you’ve got the bunch of year seven kids waiting outside the door ready to start the shows and you don’t yet have the leaders. Or they’ve only just turned up. So that’s not uncommon.

[00:26:43]
A/Prof Joanne Jamie: We’ve learned to be very flexible. And those leaders just simply grab a t-shirt, go into a station, work with us and our uni students, and we get them up to speed quite quickly. Within half an hour of them getting involved in the activities, they’re ready to go for the rest of the day and leading the entire science shows there. So, we’re really quite proud of them. But yeah, so it doesn’t go out of kilter completely, but that’s kind of the worst that we’ve had.

[00:27:19]
Ben Newsome: That’s pretty good considering. So no fires, explosions… We give them the soft stuff. Give them slime. Throwing slime first. Look, we’ve had some things fall on floors but nothing too serious. No, that’s the thing. Often they get a bit excited, might pull tablecloths off, that’s a common one. Well you can do that with a tablecloth inertia experiment, magicians do that all the time. There you go, we can make it into a purposeful thing. No, that’s the thing. The reason I actually put this in a lot of the episodes is that it just helps people to see that things don’t always go to plan and it’s what you do about it that matters. And how it counts. But look, again, thanks very much for coming along. And again, if you want to connect with them further, please just visit their Facebook page or the website.

[00:27:58]
Announcer: This is the FizzicsEd podcast. We’re all about science, ed tech and more. To see 100 fun free experiments you can do with your class, go to fizzicseducation.com.au. That’s Fizzics spelt F-I-Z-Z-I-C-S and click 100 free experiments.

[00:28:16]
Ben Newsome: Isn’t that just a great story? Joanne and Emma talking about it at the end, with their impact on their students. Being able to see that student in the front row of the lecture theatre going, oh wow, I remember you, you were back in a school a little while ago. Just knowing that you really can make a genuine difference to students, I thought that was fantastic. And obviously from this interview there was a number of things we could learn. And so I’d like to go through at least three of mine, and I bet you’d have more too. So, number one for me was connect the dots. Joanne and Emma are fundamentally chemists, and they were working to find out which compounds are best to use from native plants in Australia for medicines and whatnot. But working with the Aboriginal elders to find out what they know about their local plants.

[00:29:17]
Ben Newsome: And then just listening to their needs, where the fact that they have to say, we need help with our students. Not only did they just listen, they did something about it. So connecting the dots is fantastic, but taking that next step further? Brilliant. Learning number two: hasten slowly. Now, for some of us, it’s a bit hard to hasten slowly. We always want to go at a bull at a gate, get everything done instantly. And I know I’m definitely one of those people. However, what Joanne had to say there about getting things right and not scaling any idea too far, too quickly, is wise. Number three: connect with the university if you can. If you’re in a school, connecting with university lecturers who work with their students in a science faculty, you might be surprised what you might be able to not only gain from knowledge, but they might just be able to create some sort of movement in your school that you haven’t seen before. Don’t underestimate your impact. You really can make a difference. And if you reach out to universities, you may be able to get some help. And look, if you’re a university and you’re thinking that this might be something you want to check out, well definitely towards the end of the podcast, check out Joanne’s contact details, check out Emma’s contact details, and I’m sure they’d be more than happy to help.

[00:30:16]
Announcer: Thanks for listening to the FizzicsEd podcast. Love your science? We do too. Here’s this episode’s education tip of the week. Grab your pencil and get ready to make some notes.

[00:30:28]
Ben Newsome: In this case for education, we’re going to look at how to teach classification using very simple stuff. Let’s be honest, you look at a biology textbook or a primary science textbook, and it’s filled with descriptions of animals and plants where you have to be able to work out arrangements of petals, arrangements of stamens if you’re looking at plants, if you’re looking at animals, does it have fur, does it have scales. Now that’s all well and good, but what if you want to get off the page, or away from a YouTube video and actually show real specimens? And clearly not every school can do this. You can still teach classification using simple, everyday items. And kids actually get it. And it’s a little bit odd, but just go with me for a little moment.

[00:31:21]
Ben Newsome: So here’s an idea. How about just get a whole bunch of old buttons? Or maybe you could get a whole bunch of different cookies, biscuits for us in Australia. You could also do a variety of Lego pieces or maybe some nuts, bolts or screws. The idea is you can have an assortment of weirdly shaped materials with different colours and textures which kids can create a strange yet useful phylogenetic tree. So a series of yes-no statements to be able to classify these strange objects. Why? Because when it comes down to it, the ability of a biologist to observe structure and function is critical when they work in the field. And taking classification away from something that’s living actually makes kids actually stop and think about, well, what are the properties of this object that my teacher is asking me to do? So seriously, can the colours and shapes be easily sorted? Are there markings or surface patterns that need to be allowed for? Could you sort by the way that the item can be used? Are there anything in your group of pile of objects that act as outliers that they can’t really classify easily? It’d be strange. This can work.

[00:32:14]
Ben Newsome: And what you can get the kids to do is try to create a, well, a series of steps just like Carl Linnaeus did, also known as Carolus Linnaeus did, where you can try and get the kids to create domain, kingdom, phylum, class, order, family, genus, species out of buttons, cookies, nuts and bolts, weirdly it’s actually about Lego pieces or something. I know it’s a little bit odd, but just go with it. Even if it’s just a simple introductory lesson before you launch into the main event. So there you go, education tip of the week: teach classification, but do it with weird stuff.

[00:32:44]
Announcer: This is the FizzicsEd podcast. We’re excited about science. Grab a copy of our new book, Be Amazing: How to Teach Science the Way Primary Kids Love, from our website. Just search Be Amazing book. It’s available in hard copy and ebook. Go to fizzicseducation.com.au. That’s Fizzics spelt F-I-Z-Z-I-C-S.

[00:33:05]
Ben Newsome: As I mentioned, one of the really fantastic things that can happen is when people connect disparate bits of knowledge together to create something new. And I want you to listen to this little take from Jackie Randles‘ interview from last episode where they were able to create this awesome artwork out of knitting that strangely talks about the human brain.

[00:33:25]
Guest: Neural knitworks really is science communication at its best, I think, because this project came to National Science Week and was brought to us by two artists who live in the Sutherland Shire, and Pat Pillai and her friend Rita Pearce love to knit and crochet, and they had an idea that you could make neurons, as in the brain cells in your head, out of yarn craft. You could knit them, you could crochet them, and you could just wrap them by scrunching up bits of rag and wrapping yarn around it to create a neuron, complete with the axon and dendrites and so on.

[00:34:00]
Guest: And their idea was to invite the community to download a scientifically informed pattern book that I helped them develop with expert advice from brain experts, and then create these neurons and everybody was invited to post them to an art gallery, the Hazelhurst Art Gallery and Museum. And we created this giant brain that was as big as a room, and you could walk into it, and we had thousands of neurons donated from all across Australia.

[00:34:30]
Ben Newsome: Isn’t that just cool? You’d be amazed that really took off right across Australia with lots of students knitting away. They even did it via video conference too. And so distant students were all knitting together and learning about how motor neurons connect together and how it all actually works. And sending it into a public art gallery meant that the public could engage with it as well. So that’s brilliant stuff. And I wonder, is there something that you can do in your space, whether it’s a museum, school or whatever, that can grab people’s imagination?

[00:35:03]
Announcer: Thanks for listening to the FizzicsEd podcast. Sign up now for our fortnightly email newsletter. It’s loaded with details on new experiments you can do, STEM teaching articles, new gadgets, exclusive offers and upcoming events. Go to fizzicseducation.com.au, scroll to the bottom and add your email.

[00:35:21]
Ben Newsome: And that just about brings us to the end of yet another FizzicsEd podcast. But, there is still more. If you just jump on our website you’ll find there’s a number of free things that’ll keep you very busy in your classroom getting science to be really engaging. You’ll find there’s over 100 free articles on teaching science in all different ways. There’s a whole bunch of free experiments, you’ve definitely heard about those. Keep in touch because we’d love to hear from you, hear what you’ve been doing in your classroom and what’s been working to get kids to understand science better.

[00:35:52]
Ben Newsome: Tune in for next week where we’re interviewing Brett Salakas. There might be a few listeners who know Brett Salakas from Twitter. He’s one of the founders of the AussieEd hashtag, which is really almost like a global phenomenon now where at Eastern Standard Time on Sunday nights, round about 8 o’clock, you can tune in with Brett and all the team from the AussieEd group where you have really committed teachers sharing knowledge and ideas about what’s been working for them in their classroom. And Brett’s got a new thing coming up which you might want to find out about world STEM. Listen to the interview, you’ll find out what I mean. As always, may your science lessons be fun, make them as informative as you possibly can, and make sure that you can grab your students’ imagination. My name’s Ben Newsome, and you’ve been listening to the FizzicsEd podcast.

[00:36:39]
Announcer: You’ve been listening to another Fizzics Ed Podcast. We’re excited about science. Subscribe to us on iTunes to download the next episode as soon as it’s released. And don’t forget, for hundreds of ideas, free experiments, our new Be Amazing book and more, go to fizzicseducation.com.au. That’s physics spelled F I Z Z I C S.

Frequently Asked Questions

1. What is the core mission of the National Indigenous Science Education Programme (NISEP)?
NISEP’s fundamental mission is to use science to engage Indigenous youth, providing them with motivation, confidence, and leadership skills. The programme aims to help students succeed in their high school studies and encourage them to consider further educational opportunities, ultimately making a positive difference in their communities.

2. How does NISEP involve Indigenous elders and communities in its programmes?
NISEP operates as a consortium involving academics, school staff, and Aboriginal elders. The programme actively collaborates with Indigenous elders who share their wonderful scientific and cultural knowledge, including bush foods, bush medicines, and traditional tool-making. Elders are key partners, often co-presenting at events and helping to lead the programmes.

3. What role do university students play in NISEP events?
University students, particularly those from Macquarie University, are incorporated into the NISEP programme as mentors and role models. They work alongside the school-aged Indigenous leaders, providing an inspiring example for younger students and contributing to the informal training environment at events.

4. How does NISEP address different engagement levels among students?
NISEP purposefully selects a diverse group of student leaders, including those who are keen on science and those who might be less engaged or shy. The goal is to get every child to recognise their potential and build confidence, using science as a tool to boost their self-belief and leadership skills in an inclusive environment.

5. What advice would NISEP offer to other institutions looking to start similar community engagement programmes?
NISEP advises starting with small, well-planned steps, focusing on core activities that work well within the central school and community before scaling up. It’s crucial to build a strong network that includes teachers, support staff, wider community members (like elders), and university students. The programme emphasizes respecting what each contributor provides and not over-promising what can be delivered.

Extra thought ideas to consider

1. Replicating the “social franchise” model for STEM outreach: The NISEP programme aims to become a “social franchise,” enabling other universities and institutions to adopt its successful model across the country. This raises interesting questions about the best practices for adapting such a deeply community-embedded programme to new cultural and educational contexts, while maintaining its core values and effectiveness. What frameworks or resources would be essential to ensure consistent quality and impact when decentralising a programme like this?

2. Leveraging unexpected role models in science education: The discussion highlighted how NISEP intentionally engages both extroverted and introverted students as leaders, and also involves university students as role models. This prompts reflection on how educators can more broadly identify and cultivate diverse role models, not just within science, but across all subjects. How can we shift perceptions of who a “scientist” is to be more inclusive, and what impact might this have on student aspirations and engagement?

3. The power of cross-generational and cross-cultural knowledge sharing in STEM: NISEP’s success is built on connecting Aboriginal elders’ traditional knowledge of bush medicines and tool-making with Western science education. This intergenerational and intercultural exchange offers a rich model for learning. What other areas of traditional or local knowledge could be integrated into modern STEM curricula to provide deeper, more relevant learning experiences and foster a greater appreciation for diverse ways of knowing?